Startup costs for Epee

[The Terran]

I'm an AFL member, and the only competitions I've ever done have been "standard" tournaments within the AFL.

Now, it's fun and inexpensive but ultimately a dead end road if I ever want to learn to be a serious competitor.

So what I'm wondering is what it would cost to start fencing Epee. I have the gear, (except the weapon, I'd need a new tip and to wire my blade, along with a chord and socket) but I have no idea how much it would cost to sign up for next season, or what membership costs for the FIE.

So could anyone give me an approximation of the startup cost, and an idea of how much tournaments cost?

Thanks.

[RITFencing]

How serious of a competitor do you want to be?

You'll need at least a USFA license (50 bucks per year), a few electric epees (I'd recommend a minimum of 3, the price varies there, 50 dollars each at the low end, and I'm sure I could get one over 200 if I tried to make the most expensive epee possible. If you are currently using French and are unsure if you want to switch to pistol, stay French. You can always cut the tang down to make it a pistol later.) some epee body cords (10 or 20 each) and the tournament fees. Local events tend to run ten to thirty dollars, depending on your area of the country. I have no idea how much stuff in Oregon costs, but if you're near Rain City Fencing Center, Northwest Fencing Center, or whatever the name of Ed Korfanty's club is, there should be something near you that you can check out.

If you want to do national tournaments, the price can go up drastically... assuming you have all of your paperwork in on time, it costs 30 dollars plus 50 PER EVENT (so fencing one event at an NAC costs 80, two costs 130, etc) and if you send it in after the deadline, it's triple fees. Then there are the airlines fees, hotel fees, etc. That's how a lot of people get into reffing; I reffed and fenced at a large tournament in Maryland a few months ago, and because I was willing to ref on the second day of the event, as well as help out with setup, I got some travel fees reimbursed, they put me up with some students AND I got a bit of spare cash and a meal to boot. It can be rough to learn, and stressful at times, but I recommend it. We need more refs anyway, and it'll help your fencing.

PS If you ref national stuff, they also defray travel costs... getting hired for summer nationals means you ref all but 2 days, but you get free hotel, free flight and some money for your trouble. You can fence on your days off.

I'm getting off topic... to start in local competitions, figure an initial investment of 200-400 dollars worth of equipment, depending on exactly what you want, then 50 dollars per year for USFA membership, then probably 10-15 dollars for each tournament you fence in. It might be a bit more. Also, bear in mind that electric gear DOES break and need replacement or repair, just like dry gear, only more often. Exactly how often is tough to say, it varies depending on the quality of the gear, how often you fence, how you fence, how well it was assembled, and just plain ol' luck.

[The Terran]

Wow RIT thank you thank you thank you. From the sounds of it it shouldn't be too big of a hit to my wallet all at once. I'll definitely look into reffing, but for now I'll work on getting my membership and attending the local events.

One more question, How many touches are the initial pools at competitions? I know the DE bouts are three periods of 5 touches (right?) but how many touches are the initial pools?

The AFL does 1 touch Epee, which is utter crap in my opinion, and is partially why I want to switch...

[CvilleFencer]

Pools for seeding are 5 touch/3minute. Direct elimination are 15 touch/3 three minute periods. Youth events (Y14 and below) can and often are ran as three five touch bouts, best 2 out of 3, for their DE's, but that is certainly not the standard USFA format. Some high school leages and collegiate circuits use modified formats as well. But for USFA senior (or junior) event you are looking at 5 touch pools and 15 touch DE's. Oh yeah, and welcome to fencing!

[The Terran]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Pools for seeding are 5 touch/3minute. Direct elimination are 15 touch/3 three minute periods. Youth events (Y14 and below) can and often are ran as three five touch bouts, best 2 out of 3, for their DE's, but that is certainly not the standard USFA format. Some high school leages and collegiate circuits use modified formats as well. But for USFA senior (or junior) event you are looking at 5 touch pools and 15 touch DE's. Oh yeah, and welcome to fencing!

Thanks, 5 touches sounds so much more reasonable than one.

It seems a little strange being welcomed to fencing after 3 years of fencing...haha. I suppose soon I'll be a "real" fencer, and I can stop explaining that "nationals" doesn't mean I'm going to the Olympics, or anything close to it.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by The Terran

Wow RIT thank you thank you thank you. From the sounds of it it shouldn't be too big of a hit to my wallet all at once. I'll definitely look into reffing, but for now I'll work on getting my membership and attending the local events.

One more question, How many touches are the initial pools at competitions? I know the DE bouts are three periods of 5 touches (right?) but how many touches are the initial pools?

The AFL does 1 touch Epee, which is utter crap in my opinion, and is partially why I want to switch...

Pools are 5 touch bouts in one three minute period. The clock is started at the word "fence" and stopped on "halt."

DEs are one fifteen touch bout that can go to three periods (each three minutes.) The score carries over each time, and there are one minute breaks in between. If the score hits fifteen, then it's done, no matter how many periods have gone by.

In either case, if the score is tied at the end of time (only in the last period for a DE) then the ref will give something called "priority" to one fencer randomly, usually by coin flip. The fencers then go back and have one more minute to score a touch. Double touches are thrown out. If either fencer gets a touch, they win the bout (if they were tied at 3-3, for example, and one fencer scored in overtime, then they win 4-3.) If neither fencer scores a touch, then the fencer who was given priority wins, even though they do not receive any extra touches on the score sheet (the last example would be recorded as a 3-3 Victory.)

I know priority seems unfair, but I very rarely see a bout decided on it... it forces one fencer to eventually get aggressive, and at that point someone is going to score a touch, and I'd rather have the bouts go like that than last forever (and when you have, say, 250+ people in a div 1 men's epee NAC, time IS a factor.)

I wasn't suggest you start reffing yet, it's just something to keep in mind for the future.

Right now, just compete and see what it's like. Think about reffing in a year or two.

[The Terran]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Pools are 5 touch bouts in one three minute period. The clock is started at the word "fence" and stopped on "halt."

DEs are one fifteen touch bout that can go to three periods (each three minutes.) The score carries over each time, and there are one minute breaks in between. If the score hits fifteen, then it's done, no matter how many periods have gone by.

In either case, if the score is tied at the end of time (only in the last period for a DE) then the ref will give something called "priority" to one fencer randomly, usually by coin flip. The fencers then go back and have one more minute to score a touch. Double touches are thrown out. If either fencer gets a touch, they win the bout (if they were tied at 3-3, for example, and one fencer scored in overtime, then they win 4-3.) If neither fencer scores a touch, then the fencer who was given priority wins, even though they do not receive any extra touches on the score sheet (the last example would be recorded as a 3-3 Victory.)

I know priority seems unfair, but I very rarely see a bout decided on it... it forces one fencer to eventually get aggressive, and at that point someone is going to score a touch, and I'd rather have the bouts go like that than last forever (and when you have, say, 250+ people in a div 1 men's epee NAC, time IS a factor.)

I wasn't suggest you start reffing yet, it's just something to keep in mind for the future.

Right now, just compete and see what it's like. Think about reffing in a year or two.

Sounds like a plan, thanks again RIT.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by The Terran

Sounds like a plan, thanks again RIT.

Absolutely my pleasure, welcome to the world of ELECTRIC fencing. Hope you enjoy it.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Pools for seeding are 5 touch/3minute. Direct elimination are 15 touch/3 three minute periods. Youth events (Y14 and below) can and often are ran as three five touch bouts, best 2 out of 3, for their DE's, but that is certainly not the standard USFA format.

The standard USFA format at all levels is to have pools of 6s or 7s with 3 minute bouts to 5 touches.

For Y10 and Y12 events, it is to have best 2 out of 3 5 touch 3 minute bouts for the DEs.

For Y14, Cadet, Junior and Senir events the DE format is 15 touch bouts, divided up into 3 3 minute periods.

For Vet 40, Vet 50-59 and Vet 60+ events it is 10 touch bouts in 2 3 minute periods.

[LeftHanded]

Depending on how serious you are will alter how much you spend. When I started I wasn't extremly serious so I didn't know how long I would be fencing. I went with a basic kit from Blue Gauntlet and one body cord and one epee.

Depending on what you want will change the amount. I wanted something basic cotton and nylon kit so I spent somewhere around $200 for everything. If you want better stuff then you may be looking at $3-$400.

Of course it should go without saying that the prices will vary from vendor to vendor. Shop around

[passata_sotto]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

How serious of a competitor do you want to be?

I have no idea how much stuff in Oregon costs, but if you're near Rain City Fencing Center, Northwest Fencing Center, or whatever the name of Ed Korfanty's club is, there should be something near you that you can check out.

.

Ed Korfanty is Oregon Fencing Alliance and I believe it is sabre only. He would definitely want to to check with Michael Marx at Northwest Fencing.

And to The Terran - if you have the opportunity I would highly recommend Northwest Fencing Center for any of their epée camps. They run two in the summer - one pre nationals and one in August, a couple of three day camps over holiday weekends, but my boys' favourite is the winter camp that runs up to New Year's Day.

Good luck in your new fencing experience.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by LeftHanded

Depending on how serious you are will alter how much you spend. When I started I wasn't extremly serious so I didn't know how long I would be fencing. I went with a basic kit from Blue Gauntlet and one body cord and one epee.

The basic kit described above may be fine for practice, especially if you are just experimenting. However for competition you will need at least two weapons and two body cords.

[RITFencing]

I think he said he already had all the dry gear and just needed electrics.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by The Terran

The AFL does 1 touch Epee, which is utter crap in my opinion, and is partially why I want to switch...

One touch epee can be a lot of fun, and can be useful or training purposes, but like many things that are a lot of fun, I wouldn't want it every day.

I believe Pentathlon still uses one touch rules.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by HDG

I believe Pentathlon still uses one touch rules.

Yes, they do.

[jfarmer]

If you are just getting started in electric Epee, then Absolute's starter competition package (2 basic electric epees, 2 body cords) for ~$100US isn't bad. If you are certain that you will be competing a fair amount, then moving up to something like the StM blades from F.net is suggested (2 weapons & F.net cords is ~$145US). You can easily spend +$400US for 2 weapons & cords...

Since competition requires you to have two weapons & body cords, you should plan on getting of 2 of each from the start. It also makes practice bouting and training easier.

One touch Epee can be fun. It's played a bit differently than 15 touch bouts. One of my new students is training for the Modern Pentathlon. I believe that he told me that's it's 1 touch, with a 1 minute time period.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[wahrman]

Another thing to keep in mind is you'll need some bits and bobs. Tips, screws,
springs, weight, test box, tools, etc.

Once you track down a club in your area, there should be plenty of help there
maintaining a set of tools and spares.

I know I've seen threads here on the subject before as well.

I had never heard of the AFL before....interesting

[The Terran]

Originally Posted by wahrman

I had never heard of the AFL before....interesting

They're basically trying to start a league similar to the way the Olympics were fenced in 1940. Some of it makes sense, and it provides an inexpensive intro to fencing, but there's a reason why we don't fence visually anymore, or use epees with barbs on the end. I personally take issue with the subjectivity of some of the directors calls, the one touch epee, and the fact that visual judging requires 5 people that aren't blind deaf and dumb (which can be very hard to produce.)

But like I said, it has it's purpose. It's spreading fencing out to the general public and bringing new faces to the sport. It's a stepping stone for beginners that want to compete seriously, and a good way to kill time for the hobbyist. It's just not a place to linger if you ever hope to become competitive.

[oiuyt]

That's the thing, they AREN'T providing a reasonable stepping stone (not that they appear to be attempting to do so, of course -- they appear to have completely separate goals). There are much better options for beginners-to-competition, such as novice events, unclassified events, in-house club tournaments, even, in some divisions, dry tournaments, all of which follow standard (as in commonly-accepted, not as in the AFL's definition) rules.

For what it's worth, I've passingly considered popping down to an AFL tournament in Richmond. If it weren't for the 4 1/2 drive I'd probably have checked one out by now. A bit put off by visions of sabre filled with running attacks and needing to acquire a martingale or other means of attaching my sabre to my wrist before I could compete.

-B