What is the meaning of CEN1 and CEN2

[vicepang]

It is so on the fencing uniform~~

I would like ask

CEN1 and CEN2 is test by which institute

and CEN1 and CEN2 imply 350N and 800N or any other qualification else?

[downunder]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_mark


In general, CE level 1 is 350N, and CE level 2 is 800N

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by downunder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_mark


In general, CE level 1 is 350N, and CE level 2 is 800N

Gloves being the exception....CE2 for gloves is 350N (although FIE doesn't require such testing)

CE tests much more than FIE does...proper labelling, size indicators, seam testing, etc...

[Barry Paul]

Originally Posted by downunder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_mark
iIn general, CE level 1 is 350N, and CE level 2 is 800N

Another exceptions is masks where the bib CEN level 2 is 1600 newtons.

The Cen Level 2 is in effect the standard required by the f.i.e. for clothing and masks. But not blades, there is no European standard for fencing blades.

In the E.U. only clothing masks made to the minimum standard or above can be legally sold. Individual European countries fencing federation state which level protection they require for the different levels of fencings. So in France you can fence with a 350 jacket but you must have an 800 Newton plastron. In Germany any fencing over the age of 14 must wear full F.i.E. kit.

In the U.S. there seems no standard which considering the litigious nature of the country is some what surprising.


I

[Black Knight]

What do Atlanta range and Sydney range mean? And what are their differences?

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by Black Knight

What do Atlanta range and Sydney range mean? And what are their differences?

Most manufacturers carry 2 FIE kits. Usually one has some stretch panels, while the more expensive one has more. I'm sure Barry can give you a whole list of detailed differences between Sydney and Atlanta, but there is a pretty good description here.

Men's Atlanta Range FIE 800N
The Atlanta range is FIE approved with an 800N resistance to penetration as defined by the CEN level 2 standards. The clothing incorporates stretch material panels for ease of movement and a close fit to minimise target area.

Men's Sydney Range FIE 800N
This is the most advanced range of fencing clothing in the world. It is made entirely of a unique two way stretch fabric and features a Transpor lining which actively transports moisture away from the skin. It conforms to the FIE standard with a 800N resistance, as defined by the CEN level 2 standards. Due to the relatively small number of these that we sell we are unable to hold significant stocks of these items. Most of the time Sydney range clothing will be made as it is ordered meaning delivery time will be longer than for standard stock items.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

Another exceptions is masks where the bib CEN level 2 is 1600 newtons.

The Cen Level 2 is in effect the standard required by the f.i.e. for clothing and masks. But not blades, there is no European standard for fencing blades.

In the E.U. only clothing masks made to the minimum standard or above can be legally sold. Individual European countries fencing federation state which level protection they require for the different levels of fencings. So in France you can fence with a 350 jacket but you must have an 800 Newton plastron. In Germany any fencing over the age of 14 must wear full F.i.E. kit.

In the U.S. there seems no standard which considering the litigious nature of the country is some what surprising.


I

This probably belong in politics thread, but...

Can you say "personal responsibility?" I mean come ON! I have nothing against certification, and in fact, use the highest certified gear I can personally, but you know, if someone wants to be stupid, I fail to see why they shouldn't be allowed to.

Forbidding the sale of anything other than "certified" fencing equipment and requiring its use 100% across the board is simply a way for the government bureaucrats to make sure they have something else to control. Litigation is actually quite a good shield against poor quality merchandise.

[Barry Paul]

On your grounds no crash testing of cars, no seat belts, I beleive you have to have some standards/rules to save people from themselves.

But more importantly, what about a beginner who buys the cheapest clothing for their kid and there is an accident. The parent might well feel some should have told them that fencing needs protective clothing and feel at the very least there was some minimum standard.

As for the statement. 'Litigation is actually quite a good shield against poor quality merchandise.' Litigation is only good for the lawers and is a rotten way of improving standard or ensuring a minimum level of protection in any sport or activity.

[Monash_Armourer]

Originally Posted by oso97

This probably belong in politics thread, but...

Can you say "personal responsibility?" I mean come ON! I have nothing against certification, and in fact, use the highest certified gear I can personally, but you know, if someone wants to be stupid, I fail to see why they shouldn't be allowed to.

Forbidding the sale of anything other than "certified" fencing equipment and requiring its use 100% across the board is simply a way for the government bureaucrats to make sure they have something else to control. Litigation is actually quite a good shield against poor quality merchandise.

The point is litigation does not stop people from getting hurt in the first place. Just because people are stupid and get hurt doesn't mean that they are the only ones to ultimately suffer. Having the CE 1 standards minimum is meant to minimise risks, despite it not making immediate sense to you, it makes perfect sense to sporting bodies, organisers and suppliers.

Would you prefer an event where a blade breakage occurs and somebody receives a serious injury, lots of blood because a minor artery has been nicked? Or would you rather see them pay 20-30 bucks extra for CE 1 material which doesn't totally prevent penetration, but stops it from causing anywhere near the level of injury as might have otherwise been incurred? The difference could be between the injured fencer returning, that fencer not coming back, their opponent not returning and the people that both could have potentially brought to the sport.

If you ensure stupid people cannot make the stupid choice due to regulation, you suddenly have alot less to worry about.

Regulation does not stifle innovation and does not stop a manufacturer deleivering a better quality product in the same class as it's competitors, but ensures you know what you get as a minimum.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

I beleive you have to have some standards/rules to save people from themselves.

Yep, this says it all. *Insert irony for the clueless* I'll go back to being a good cog in the machine now, and not launch any more missives at the system. I wouldn't want to be labeled a "subversive."

[Monash_Armourer]

Originally Posted by oso97

Yep, this says it all. *Insert irony for the clueless* I'll go back to being a good cog in the machine now, and not launch any more missives at the system. I wouldn't want to be labeled a "subversive."

Stop beign such a cynical economist. An unregulated market only breeds quality at one end, and you only end up paying more for it because more can be charged for it, and everybody else suffers financially or otherwise. In this instance the compromised is money vs safety. I guess it really shows what you value...

[vicepang]

Anyone know something about

the CEN standard of EN 13567:2002 ?

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by oso97

This probably belong in politics thread, but...

Can you say "personal responsibility?" I mean come ON! I have nothing against certification, and in fact, use the highest certified gear I can personally, but you know, if someone wants to be stupid, I fail to see why they shouldn't be allowed to.

Forbidding the sale of anything other than "certified" fencing equipment and requiring its use 100% across the board is simply a way for the government bureaucrats to make sure they have something else to control. Litigation is actually quite a good shield against poor quality merchandise.

OK let us say personal responsibility and not have any standards. What about the person who kills you. I for one would not fence or be involved with any competition without standards. If you want to get killed jump off a deserted cliff, don't get someone else the chance to kill you.

Originally Posted by vicepang

Anyone know something about

the CEN standard of EN 13567:2002 ?

That is the document with the standard. I downloaded this once to Fencing.net and here it is again.

Also just because something says CE doesn't mean it has been certified. There are some mask going around with a dark blue inside and a label that says CE. No manufacturers name and no level. These have not been certified.

Also last weekend Eric Hansen came to a local tournament with a mask that he was required to buy when he went to France last month because they didn't pass his FWF FIE mask. He was given a choice of Prieur or Le Mask. The Le Mask fit better so he bought that and it was passed at a FIE competition. I had to warn him if he went to an FIE competiton where they actually knew what they were doing he would have to buy a new mask again. Le Mask are not FIE certified.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by vicepang

Anyone know something about

the CEN standard of EN 13567:2002 ?

EUROPEAN STANDARD;
EN 13567;
July 2002;
Protective clothing - Hand, arm, chest, abdomen, leg, genital and face protectors for fencers - Requirements and test methods

It is the document which spells out the requirement for CEN certification of fencing equipment. It includes both Level 1 and Level 2.

[Monash_Armourer]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Also last weekend Eric Hansen came to a local tournament with a mask that he was required to buy when he went to France last month because they didn't pass his FWF FIE mask. He was given a choice of Prieur or Le Mask. The Le Mask fit better so he bought that and it was passed at a FIE competition. I had to warn him if he went to an FIE competiton where they actually knew what they were doing he would have to buy a new mask again. Le Mask are not FIE certified.

Is this because FWF and Le Mask have not sought CEN 2 and FIE certification respectively? You've got me curious...

[oso97]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Also last weekend Eric Hansen came to a local tournament with a mask that he was required to buy when he went to France last month because they didn't pass his FWF FIE mask. He was given a choice of Prieur or Le Mask. The Le Mask fit better so he bought that and it was passed at a FIE competition. I had to warn him if he went to an FIE competiton where they actually knew what they were doing he would have to buy a new mask again. Le Mask are not FIE certified.

Nice example of how the certification process can be exploited to benefit someone with the right connections... (and I'm not referring to Eric!)

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Also last weekend Eric Hansen came to a local tournament with a mask that he was required to buy when he went to France last month because they didn't pass his FWF FIE mask. He was given a choice of Prieur or Le Mask. The Le Mask fit better so he bought that and it was passed at a FIE competition. I had to warn him if he went to an FIE competiton where they actually knew what they were doing he would have to buy a new mask again. Le Mask are not FIE certified.

Wha??? Why didn;t they pass the FWF mask??

[KD5MDK]

Probably because it was too German.

[SJCFU#2]

Or perhaps they were simply using an out-of-date list - the FIE lists the FWF traditional (foil/epee) mask as homolgated in 2005.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

Or perhaps they were simply using an out-of-date list - the FIE lists the FWF traditional (foil/epee) mask as homolgated in 2005.

If they're using a list more than 2 years old something's wrong....