Classical Italien Grip

[sevaridaemon]

I use the classical italien grip, but I realize that this is extremely rare. My question is this: Why? What is wrong with this, or the classical french grip for that matter?

Is there somthing that I don't know about the weapon that is detremantal to my fencing, or somthing like that?

[jeff]

This has been very frequently discussed on this forum, in fact, pretty much discussed to death. For the whole discussion, try using the "Search" feature of the board.

To make a very long story short: the Italian grip stopped being used in contemporary fencing because it's functionally obsolete. Anything you can do with an Italian grip can be done more effectively and comfortably with one of the pistol grips. There is more use of French grip than Italian, but it also has been largely displaced by pistol grips of one style or another.

[noodle]

sports change, and it became clear that the classical italian grip didn't provide the benefit that could be provided by either a pistol or a french grip could, so most people stopped using it.

[fatfencer]

I think its a great grip, but in order to increase the power of the grip I would definitely conform the shaft of the grip more towards your hand rather than straight.

Also, I would weld on a 'trigger' so that your index finger has a fulcrum for flicking. It's still a viable move now that everyone is used to the timing.

After this nationals I will be training daily using the strap and the italian.

I have too much hand trouble with tendonitis and stuff.

FF

[jeff]

Hmm, an Italian changed to conform to the shape of the hand, and then have a "trigger". Sounds like a pistol grip!

[Adler]

Originally Posted by sevaridaemon

Is there somthing that I don't know about the weapon that is detremantal to my fencing, or somthing like that?

Yes its the fencing equivalent of a veneral disease the first symptom's are growth of waxed facial hair on the upper lip and leg warmers.

[KidLazy]

Severe symptoms including brain malfunction which lead to statements like this,

Originally Posted by sevaridaemon

I use a classical italian grip. The pistol grip has one purpose in my mind, and that is for those who are handicap, like one of my coaches. For all other purposes, it is like trying to use a hammer instead of a screw driver. The french and italian (classical) grips are the two which I would recommed. For most people, I would say the french is the best, especially for beginners. The Italian worked for Nadi and many other masters of their day, even against pistol grips. Frankly fencing is more about skill than equipment anyway.

[RITFencing]

Ouch. Normally I'd say something along the lines of "be nice," but that is a rather inflammatory post.

Oh well, let's try and be nice from now on; each side put in their shots, and the question has already been answered.

[jeff]

Oh, I missed the inflammatory (and painfully silly) post. Where was that?

EDIT: You know, it seems there's this strong defensive streak - by which I mean "insecure" - among some of the classical types, and certainly with the ones passionately defending their favorite grip. They make foolish and aggressive remarks, often invoking the names of dead champions, who would have nothing to do with such losers, presumably because they themselves have no fencing accomplishments to point to. (If you think your style / grip / bandana make you a better fencer than everyone else, then go prove it on the piste. After you earn a reputation, people will try to emulate the things you do that make you successful. If using an Italian grip had that effect, there would be a lot of it around)

[sevaridaemon]

It was in a previous thread. It was also my first post on this forum... and just to point it out, I was referencing Nick Evancelasca (sp?) art and science of fencing.

I do apologise for that. I still favor the two classical grips, and dislike the pistol, but I do not begrudge anyone who uses it. I also still feel that fencing is about skill over equipment.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by sevaridaemon

It was in a previous thread. It was also my first post on this forum... and just to point it out, I was referencing Nick Evancelasca (sp?) art and science of fencing.

I do apologise for that. I still favor the two classical grips, and dislike the pistol, but I do not begrudge anyone who uses it. I also still feel that fencing is about skill over equipment.

You will never be a good fencer using an Italian. I promise you and will fellate you if you rise to a B level or above.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

You will never be a good fencer using an Italian. I promise you and will fellate you if you rise to a B level or above.

You, ah... you might not actually be encouraging him to get that B, there.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by sevaridaemon

It was in a previous thread. It was also my first post on this forum... and just to point it out, I was referencing Nick Evancelasca (sp?) art and science of fencing.

I do apologise for that. I still favor the two classical grips, and dislike the pistol, but I do not begrudge anyone who uses it. I also still feel that fencing is about skill over equipment.

Is skill more important? Sure. But that kind of sweeping statement tends to be wrong...

Between two fencers of equal skill, the one with better equipment will have an advantage.

When the equipment can (sometimes seriously) adversely affect something really important like blade control, then having a better piece of equipment can really make a different in your fencing.

People rarely use the Italian grip because with equal training and skill, a fencer using a pistol will get a much better feel from their blade, be given better control and have much more strength with it. This is not an issue like having a slightly lighter or heavier blade, or a jacket that's a bit more comfortable; the orthopedic grips drastically improve a fencer's control, feel and strength with their weapon.

[sevaridaemon]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

You will never be a good fencer using an Italian. I promise you and will fellate you if you rise to a B level or above.

Right, I understand that most people do not like the Italian grip. I understand that most think it and the french grip are outdated, and I have searched the forums, and I can clearly see this. My question is why.

Why is it so bad? I can't seem to find it anywhere. I know that everyone seems to feel that it is a relic of a bygone era, like taking an old single shot dueling pistol that shoots crooked against a Desert Eagle. I just want to know why it is so bad. If it will truly damage my fencing, I want to know how. If it makes it impossible to me to become a good fencer, I want to know why, and the specifics of it.

Does it limit range of movement, responsiveness, etc. If so, how?

I am not trying to say that I am better than you because I use an Italian, or that using a classical style is better, or anything like that (the post I made months ago was immature and I do sincerely apologise for that). You are right, I don't have any prestige, I am not a master and Nadi would probably never give me the time of day. I was trying to emulate Nadi in using the Italian grip, and was origonally taught in a classical style. The Italian grip is comfortable to me, and I do fence well with it.

I'm not looking for an argument, or attacks on my character, skill or anything else. I simply want an explanation. Sorry.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by sevaridaemon

Right, I understand that most people do not like the Italian grip. I understand that most think it and the french grip are outdated, and I have searched the forums, and I can clearly see this. My question is why.

Why is it so bad? I can't seem to find it anywhere. I know that everyone seems to feel that it is a relic of a bygone era, like taking an old single shot dueling pistol that shoots crooked against a Desert Eagle. I just want to know why it is so bad. If it will truly damage my fencing, I want to know how. If it makes it impossible to me to become a good fencer, I want to know why, and the specifics of it.

Does it limit range of movement, responsiveness, etc. If so, how?

french grip is still widely used in epee, where the extra distance you can get can be used tactically to your advantage in order to hit first.

the reason why italian isn't used anymore is because it doesn't give the extra power that pistol gives, nor does it effectively give you the option to post (hold at end to get extra distance) like a french does. it is not a "best of both worlds" combination, it is a "less than the sum of the parts". can you do well using it? yes, of course. but it is a handicap, and most people will drop anything that handicaps their game once they realize it does handicap them.

french isn't used in foil (much) anymore because the extra distance doesn't matter much because of right of way. the extra power you get from pistol grips is much more useful than extra distance; the little distance you gain is negligible.

[RITFencing]

Here's a more technical answer, though this is grounded in my own conjecture, so it could be wrong. It could very well be right, too; I have been in this business for a little while. It seems to boil down to two things:

1) The Italian, especially with a wrist strap, severely reduces range of motion of the hand. While this may help fencers to stop using their wrist in blade action, it can encourage use of the elbow joint. It also prevents fencers from using the wrist at all in situations where they should (angulation on a thrust, infighting, etc.) Even without the wrist strap, some angle are cut off because of the long handle and the pommel at the end. Sure, this can be mitigated by rolling the pommel off to one side or the other, but it still eliminates possible positions and makes it more difficult and time consuming to move to others. A pistol, on the other hand, especially with the rear prong cut down, allows complete articulation of the fingers and wrist.

2) The Italian forces the hand to assume an unnatural position where the body's muscle and bone structure is not fully taken advantage of. The pistol, on the other hand, allows the hand to assume a position that is not only more comfortable but allows greater control and feeling, provides much better leverage for use of the blade and gives much greater stability for the blade and tip, allowing more consistent blade motion and tip placement.

So, the pistol offers a greater range of motion, takes better advantage of the muscle and bone structure of the hand, and is much more comfortable. This last one is honestly a big deal if you're going to be using the damn thing often (I coach 20-30 hours a week, and then practice/fence on my own and while I don't have a weapon in my hand the whole time, I spend enough of it with one to care about how my hand feels during and after.)

Was the pistol originally created for someone with a disability? Sure. But forcing things to stay as they were originally inhibits growth and enforces a very inflexible, reactionary mindset. It was found that the things that make it good for people with damaged hands make it even better for people with whole ones. If you've got something better, seriously, why not use it?

[sevaridaemon]

This is probably more appropriate in annother post, but how does power help in foil? Isn't posting illegal? Perhaps I was taught wrong (it wouldn't surprise me).

[jeff]

If we're going to be civil (which is much less funny, alas) then I'll try to answer seriously. I was trained on Italian, competed with it, and happily gave it up.

The Italian grip, properly held with the fingers on the edges of blade and cross-bar, is much more fatiguing than holding a pistol grip. You could live with it with light, dry weapons, but the balance is really bad for electric weapons; very point heavy.

Both let you make strong blade actions - but the advantage is with the pistol grip since you have better contact with the handle than the surface areas possible with the Italian. Both let you make fine-control actions with your fingers, and both can be used as a club by clumsy or poorly trained fencers. By the way, back in the day the Italian grip was widely used, it was commonly claimed by French stylists that the Italian grip led to bad control and lack of delicate finger work. Not true, nor is it true with pistol either.

Add to that the wrist strap (if you take that style of Italian) which constricts the arm and restricts the number of positions you can easily deploy the weapon (eg: parry prime and infighting are much harder).

As a result, almost everybody that used Italian stopped, decades ago. In 1970 I knew exactly two first rate fencers who used Italian grip, out of hundreds. Long before the flick was invented, in case that's what you're thinking. The Italians stopped using it too. That should be a clue. The good fencers stopped using it a long time ago. Why would a skilled individual who cares about his results use an inferior tool? The only ones using Italian grip now are marginally skilled ones who don't care about results.

As far as Evangelista (note the spelling), he's pretty much considered a buffoon in serious fencing circles - somebody who mouths off a lot, but has never fenced with any distinction or produced a fencer who has. Anybody know of a good fencer who Evangelista created? I don't think so. Not to stop there: he disavowed classical fencing too, so he offended those guys also. I think he's motivated more by his personal quirks and ego than by actually fencing or teaching fencers who can hold their own with others. In the boondocks of fencing you get a few self-satisfied "Masters" who never accomplish anything.

RITFencing's previous posts were funnier.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by sevaridaemon

This is probably more appropriate in annother post, but how does power help in foil? Isn't posting illegal? Perhaps I was taught wrong (it wouldn't surprise me).

No, posting is not illegal...

By power, I don't think noodle means really strong blade actions, but rather an effective energy transfer to make quick, solid actions with a minimum of force. Of course, it is much easier to flick with pistol grips, and there are more and more people using opposition in foil these days, so the strength is never a bad thing. If someone just dominates your blade and you are too weak to stop them and can't disengage quickly enough, then it doesn't matter what you're fencing.

Also, he may mean that in foil, the added distance from posting means a lot less than the same sacrifice of power and control than it does in epee.

[RebelFencer]

I don't have anything against the Italian grip, it was probably very useful before pistol grips. It's just that pistol grips do the same job better, so there is no point to using the Italian grip other than for nostalgia's sake.