When to extend

[crquack]

This is another one of the very basic questions:

You want to attack with an advance-lunge. At what point do you extend your arm? At the beginning of the advance? At the end of advance? At the beginning of the lunge?

Is this affected by what you do with the blade in the process? Say you do a beat-disengage. Do yo beat with your arm flexed and extend to the disengage? Do you beat with your arm extended?

[peet]

My favorite answer for any fencing question:

"It Depends!"

In other words: There is no one answer for any of your questions, because it depends on lots of variables, not the least of which is what your opponent is doing. What works against one opponent won't necessarily work against another, what works at the beginning of a bout won't work the same at the end, etc. etc.

But that's what makes fencing interesting!

-p

[RebelFencer]

Peet is right, but assuming you fence Epee' a good rule of thumb is arm first. Not necessarily fully extended, but presented in order to bring out a reaction (or lack of one) from your opponent. This gives you more reaction time and is just generally helpful. It isn't always the solution, but if unsure it's a pretty safe fallback.

[ysbadadden]

Originally Posted by crquack

This is another one of the very basic questions:

You want to attack with an advance-lunge. At what point do you extend your arm? At the beginning of the advance? At the end of advance? At the beginning of the lunge?

Is this affected by what you do with the blade in the process? ...

I second Peet's "it depends." Having said that, any kind of orthodoxy in all three weapons calls for a movement of the blade to initiate the final movement of the attack. The movement could be an extension or part extension of the arm, an attempt to take/beat the opponent's blade, etc. Maybe even more specifically -- a movement of the tip of the blade. A stricter orthodoxy calls for some degree of extension of the arm, while very strict orthodoxy calls for a full extension of the arm as defining] the initiation of the attack. Which would mean that the arm is extended before the advance in an advance-lunge attack, as indeed we see in the old (30's) Prisoner of Zenda movie. What's needed is up to the referees in a tournament or the agreement of the fencers in friendly bouting.

You don't say what weapon you fence. In sabre, it's generally sufficient to turn your guard toward your opponent as you step forward (or when you want to signal the start of your step-forward--lunge.) --The blade has to be inclined forward, too. In foil, it's harder to define, but I'd like to see at least a symbolic threat begun with the point.

In epee ... well, since there's no right of way, it completely depends on how you assess your opponent and yourself. You may not want to offer the blade at all on the way in, preferring instead to finish with maximum acceleration of the point. You may have learned that on your step forward without extension, your opponent will begin a stop-thrust with extension, offering you the chance to counter-time him with opposition. Or you may want to begin an extension, hoping to draw a parry that you can deceive, or remise around.

Of course, all these possibilities exist in foil, but they're more constrained by the right-of-way rule.

[achilles_heal]

Originally Posted by ysbadadden

You don't say what weapon you fence. In sabre, it's generally sufficient to turn your guard toward your opponent as you step forward (or when you want to signal the start of your step-forward--lunge.) --The blade has to be inclined forward, too.

what if one fencer starts with the guard already turned toward the opponent? what if both do? is that pre-destined to be simultaneous, should they both make advance lunge?

since the poster is looking for a, more or less, generally applicable answer, i will try, for sabre. in the center, begin the extension as the back foot is being brought up in the advance. above all, begin before the opponent, if the opponent is also making advance lunge - be physically faster, or make them hesitate/make too big or too slow prep. it helps if the en garde is slightly back, protecting the blade, the wrist, and making it easier for the ref to see the beginning.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by crquack

You want to attack with an advance-lunge. At what point do you extend your arm? At the beginning of the advance? At the end of advance? At the beginning of the lunge?

I'll give you the foil answer: in general, you want to begin with an extension slightly before the foot moves to start the advance of the advance-lunge.

If you are a beginner, then always hand before foot.

Once you get more advanced, then the "it depends" answer comes into play because you'll start your attack differently for different tactical situations/problems and opponents.

Craig

[Allen Evans]

I'll turn all of this around and ask: Why are you extending?

If you are making a feint with the extension, that is going to happen earlier than if you are making a final action, for instance. The purpose of the extension will also control how far you extend. If you are making a simple riposte at the right distance, extending instantly and completely before any footwork is correct. If you are making a lost time attack, you might not be extending at all, until the lunge has landed and your opponent is in an undefensable position to enable you to score.

You are new to fencing (I am guessing) and people new to fencing look for rules for actions. Yet, in almost every case, "it depends" is going to be the answer you get first.

AE

[lemon__fresh]

in general in sabre, i like to begin my extension at the beginning of the advance and continue to extend the arm smoothly throughout to the point where it is fully extended by the end of the lung... but as stated many times

it usually depends

how picky is the director?

does your opponent search for the blade or like to make stop cuts?

etc

developing correct extension of the arm is very crucial and should be developed early on, bad habits like withdrawing your arm or not extending enough or at all (sabre) can cost you alot of touches and lead to much frustration. your attacks have to look like attacks

[chefencer]

Haha! Allen is quite correct as he once again takes our focus from the pointing finger and towards what we're actually trying to find.
Mindful Fencing - someone needs to write a book!

[jeff]

I'll add (since the question was asked in opening post): +don't+ beat with an extended arm. In other words, don't extend-and-beat. Rather: beat-and-extend.

For beginners, Craig's advice is succinct and (no pun intended) to the point: Extend at the beginning, in order to make things easier while developing mechanical skills. That helps beginners developing avoid a lot of bad habits, like extending too late (not getting right of way, getting hit on preparation), getting tangled up when trying to make a disengage, or extending at the last moment of a lunch and PUNCHING the opponent (I still have a healing bruise on my bicep from a little girl who repeatedly punched me with a last moment extension in pair drills - from over a month ago! Ow)

I'll condition this with the following: you don't want to have a visible "extend then lunge" multiple tempo feeling. That's slow and telegraphs the attack. Ideally, the actions blend together. If you have a coach working on your skills you can make the extension and advance lunge or lunge seamless. In the meantime, watch what you're doing and see if you're properly developing the extension vs. lunging with arm still bent. There are very strong coaches who NEVER teach 'extend then lunge' because they feel it's unnecessary delay - but they are taking care of their pupils to make sure they develop the right actions together.

Also, the rules never insisted on a fully extended arm for ROW. Pedagogically, that's how it was traditionally taught, but the rules always have been that an extending, forward motion of the arm is what gets you the ROW, not requiring a fully extended arm. You end that way, but you've acquired ROW well before the arm is straight. I have a 1957 rules book that states this explicitly - so claims, for example from CF fans, that we've changed the rules to permit the "extending arm" are wrong.

[Sabresque]

To go along with past advice... you want to extend either right before or with your front leg going forward as you lunge NOT WITH THE FIRST STEP; this is going to make you lose your explosiveness and telegraph to your opponent what you are going to d0. It depends on what weapon you are fencing and what you plan to do, but it mostly depends on distance. Within a closer distance (at least in saber), you can usually attack with your arm first followed by the landing of your front foot in the lunge. the problem with describing this in text is that the timing is so tight the best way to learn is to watch others: get yourself a tape of international fencing and see how they do it.

[tchwojko]

In epee, my rule of thumb early in my learning was to extend earlier rather than later, since you never know if you might hit something. It also forces your opponent deal with your point.

Once that was my established panic reflex, I figured out how to stop panicking and be conscious of where and when I extended, which was entirely dependent on relative distance, relative acceleration, opponent, score, pool/DE situation, height difference, available targets, my guard position, my opponent's guard position, hand speed and quality, footwork speed and quality, location of my attack/defense or my opponent's attack/defense, position on the strip (both lateral and longitudinal), etc., etc...

One of my tactics with inexperienced fencers is to start with a fairly extended guard position, and while jockeying for distance, messing with their blade, and otherwise distracting them, gradually bring my guard in. I can easily change my opponent's distance by about a foot, and get an easy touch on a fairly simple attack (beat-fleche, lunge w/disengage, etc.) before they realize their distance is completely wrong.

It's a lot of fun to do this to fairly athletic younger fencers, because it seems like this older balding guy just snuck up on them with a seemingly slow attack. They think I caught them snoozing, when in fact, I was taking advantage of the fact that they were paying attention, just to the wrong thing. The especially quick (physically, not mentally) will think "Ooh, I can just parry that a little faster."

It also works in reverse with aggressive fencers. Start with a guard in close, and gradually extend, giving an apparent opening for an attack when nearly fully extended. The opponent attacks at the furthest distance, and I get a simple riposte.

This is all for people who base their sense of distance by the blade rather than the body, so it's not as effective for more experienced fencers.

[lemon__fresh]

Originally Posted by Sabresque

To go along with past advice... you want to extend either right before or with your front leg going forward as you lunge NOT WITH THE FIRST STEP.

doesnt this bring up the question of priority?

If you dont at least start some kind of forward hand movement to establish priority at the beginning of the step/advance

unless by "extend" you mean full extension, in which case i completley agree

[downunder]

Originally Posted by lemon__fresh

doesnt this bring up the question of priority?

If you dont at least start some kind of forward hand movement to establish priority at the beginning of the step/advance

unless by "extend" you mean full extension, in which case i completley agree

the extension must occur before the end of the step.

[crquack]

Thank you, people, this has been helpful.

I should have specified I was asking about epee in this instance. In fact one of the things that brought this question about was that the advance-lunge felt different to me in sabre than in epee. Whereas in sabre it just felt right to throw the weapon forward at the beginning of advance and perform three movements before the lunge was complete (2 feints and a hit), it felt very awkward in epee. It seemed very telegraphic and beating with an extended arm awfully clunky.

To clarify further, there is no coaching here. I do a lot of solo drills in the garage in an effort to get the bricks right before I apply the mortar in the club.

[tchwojko]

In epee, I don't think figuring out when to extend is something you can really accomplish with a solo drill, other than practicing to disconnect your bladework from your footwork.

[ysbadadden]

Originally Posted by achilles_heal

what if one fencer starts with the guard already turned toward the opponent? what if both do? is that pre-destined to be simultaneous, should they both make advance lunge?

It's the [i]turning of the guard that signals the start of the attack, not the position of the guard. And the turning of the guard from third position does in fact move the weapon forward. It's not an extension, but it is a forward movement of the weapon. Hence the start of the attack.

Originally Posted by achilles_heal

since the poster is looking for a, more or less, generally applicable answer, i will try, for sabre. in the center, begin the extension as the back foot is being brought up in the advance.

I'd say this was a generally applicable maxim in all the weapns. But note that that's a late beginning of the extension and leaves you open to a counterattack in sabre and epee. (But everything has an answer).

[keith]

Originally Posted by downunder

the extension must occur before the end of the step.

...so perhaps the best time is to extend as the back foot lands at the end of step.

*Wonders if this is a new idea...... *

[edew]

The rules require that the extension starts before the back foot moves during the advance part of the advance-lunge. If not, then the advance is not part of a simple attack and so an opponent's attack during the advance will have right of way.

In other words, if you ad-(extend arm)vance-lunge, and your opponent attacks during the (extend arm) part of your action, the "ad" part of your action is part of your attack and you're ahead for right of way. If you advance-extend arm-lunge, and your opponent attacks during the "vance" of the advance, then he has right of way because you're just walking forward into an attack.

Of course, interpretation of what the fencers are doing, by the referee, is not so black and white. Most referees will still give it to the person who's advancing first, but I have seen (and made such calls) on occasion where the fencer is just advancing and opponent makes a strong fast attack into the advance and get the call.

[downunder]

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