Point Control Training Aid

[Qbranch]

I have decided to post this here to solicit responses from those of you with expertise in coaching. Over the past few months I have been exploring the idea of creating a point control aid for home practice (foil). The idea is based upon a simple wall target using marked areas to designate quadrants. However, in this case the target would be a clear plexiglass sheet with four lights set behind and wired to trigger in a random pattern (the idea being that the target will decide when an 'opening' will be presented in high, low, inside or outside line). The timing would also be random.

At this stage I believe I have managed to sort through the details of making such a device. My questions are:

1. Would such a device, in your view, be beneficial and worth building?
2. Do you perceive any problems that could arise out of using this training aid (particularly when used by a novice)?

[Allen Evans]

Are you trying to train point control (and by that, I assume you mean accuracy in hitting) or response time?

I'm not sure the device you've designed will faciliate accurate attacks, just fast ones.

A E

[Bryn Ralph]

I agree w/ Allen. I suggest the use of a simple panel w/ five points: four in the shape of a twleve-inch square and the fifth point in the centre. If mobility is necessary w/ such a target, then move the panel to accommodate the height of imaginary opponent, as well as that of the fencer.

However, new technology will emerge; your idea does have merit.

[Qbranch]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Are you trying to train point control (and by that, I assume you mean accuracy in hitting) or response time?
A E

Both really. I understanding your closing comment. This could certainly be detrimental and I would not want to sacrifice accuracy for speed at this stage. Perhaps the device would be better suited to someone at an intermediate level or above.

[Qbranch]

Originally Posted by Bryn Ralph

I agree w/ Allen. I suggest the use of a simple panel w/ five points: four in the shape of a twleve-inch square and the fifth point in the centre. If mobility is necessary w/ such a target, then move the panel to accommodate the height of imaginary opponent, as well as that of the fencer.

However, new technology will emerge; your idea does have merit.

Very helpful comments. Thanks for the input!

It might also be worth mentioning a variant of the original idea presented. Early on I had envisioned a clear cast torso mold (rather than a plexiglass sheet) to give the target a three-dimensional quality more akin to the body of an opponent. This cast would project from the wall so that the lighted target points (visible through the cast) would be presented at varying distances conforming to the position of the opponent's body en guarde. The height of this target could also be adjusted accordingly. The initial idea was to create a device that could be used to assist in the training of point and distance control (as well as response time). A possibility... but a project I've decided to leave alone for the moment.

[chefencer]

One aspect that will be difficult to overcome is getting people to use it more than twice... If there was a way to make it more interesting (timing games or scoring) it might be used more often than those expensive reaction time targets that languish on the walls of some salles. Maybe it would be useful to make some sort of fencing Simon?...

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by Qbranch

Early on I had envisioned a clear cast torso mold (rather than a plexiglass sheet) to give the target a three-dimensional quality more akin to the body of an opponent. This cast would project from the wall so that the lighted target points (visible through the cast) would be presented at varying distances conforming to the position of the opponent's body en guarde. The height of this target could also be adjusted accordingly. The initial idea was to create a device that could be used to assist in the training of point and distance control (as well as response time). A possibility... but a project I've decided to leave alone for the moment.

Depth of target may be the sort of feature that would be needed to make your creation stand out. Right now it sounds like you are trying to reinvent something that already exists (Target Practice)

[Allen Evans]

What ever feature is built into this target has to solve the biggest problem associated with these devices: convincing unmotivated students/fencers that they need to spend the time with the device to get benefit out of it.

This may well keep any device from being cost-effective.

A E

[Fencergrl]

Time release, ankle bracelets bolted to the floor should do the trick...

Or make it look like a big gaming console.... kids play video games for hours...

[Qbranch]

For all that I have said about the target in question I would add that I tend to be a little skeptical of fancy devices (especially when they distract from their intended purpose). At the end of it all my principle concern is to improve my fencing and if a few pieces of tape on the wall (or a ball on a string) will do the job I'll just as soon go that route. I've not seen similar targets up this way but I'm not surprised they exist. As far as pitching an idea for R & D I can't imagine that such a device would generate real profits but if it can truly enhance the learning experience I think it might be worth rigging up for home or club use.

I do appreciate all of the comments!

[jBirch]

Two things:

I like the idea that you'll be using a plexiglass surface, rather then a cloth based one. The system sounds like it more accurately replicates the way that the game is currently played with chest protectors.

The timing of the lights is the key. If you can put a controller in there so that the timing can be changed, then the game becomes hitting as many lights as possible in a certain period. Couple the random lights with a progressively tighter timing and you've got what we used to call "Space Invaders". Add in the number of hits, and you've got "Asteroids". Add in the ability to change the size of the lights, and you've got a really deep game to play with lots of tactical variabillity.

It probably wouldn't be much of a stretch to hook the lights up to a microprocessor (even better, the parallel out of a laptop) so that you can write software to trigger the lights in whatever pattern you want.

Neat idea.

James.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

Time release, ankle bracelets bolted to the floor should do the trick...

You and your weirdo bondage gadgets.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

You and your weirdo bondage gadgets.

Does anyone else find it odd that RIT's the only one who seems to notice??? Don't blame me that your mind heads in that direction.

[Fencergrl]

Here's another idea that'll keep the young men at the club interested (and some of the young women annoyed).

Make your training aid have sex-appeal.... hit the target and the model reveals a little more skin... miss and clothing goes back on. Trust me... the coaches will have trouble stopping the guys from practicing.

Hey you can even have a Canadian and American version where the Canadian one strips down further than the American one...

[Durando]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

What ever feature is built into this target has to solve the biggest problem associated with these devices: convincing unmotivated students/fencers that they need to spend the time with the device to get benefit out of it.

This may well keep any device from being cost-effective.

A E

I try to lead by example. I try to show them how to use it. I use it all the time. I'm talking about nothing more exotic than a wall target. So, tonight, Royal hit me with a series of hard, flat flicks. "Do it again and we're going to have a little chat," I said. Of course he couldn't help it now. So, as he was excusing himself I told him that getting hit like that didn't bother me, but never seeing him practice his flicks in such a way that he might actually start landing them was an outright nuisance.

And that is with a device as simple as a wall target. Allen you couldn't be more right.

[RPI Epeeist]

I finished my prototype for reaction time... so I'll post the link to the original thread for that after I've put up the pictures and the description.

[RPI Epeeist]

So that didn't take long... its the last post for now.

Dorm Room Fencing Practice

This thing is pure circuitry... once I get better with embedded control, I may work in some algorithms and interactive electronics to make it more of a game... definitely an on going project but like I said... "prototype"

[tlucente]

I've seen a device (below) very similar to what you describe, already for sale. Are you trying to build a cheaper alternative?

http://www.fencepbt.com/pbthome3.nsf...5!OpenDocument

[Qbranch]

Originally Posted by tlucente

I've seen a device (below) very similar to what you describe, already for sale. Are you trying to build a cheaper alternative?

This is the device mentioned above. It has a greater number of features than the target I have in mind. My needs are quite basic at this stage and the Target Speed device is costly so a cheaper alternative is certainly what I am after.

I suspect that there are advanced fencers who could benefit from a training aid that can calculate the speed of an attack, etc., but such a device would be of little use to me (in fact it may even create problems for a novice such as myself). Allen, Bryn and Durando have satisfied my second question (op) by steering towards more traditional wall targets that will keep a focus on specific and basic tasks. Nothing fancy - just the essentials to get the job done. I will probably go ahead with my idea but it will remain quite simple in its design.

RPI - Thanks for sharing images of your target prototype - an interesting design!

[VorpalCat]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

Here's another idea that'll keep the young men at the club interested (and some of the young women annoyed).

Make your training aid have sex-appeal.... hit the target and the model reveals a little more skin... miss and clothing goes back on. Trust me... the coaches will have trouble stopping the guys from practicing.

Hey you can even have a Canadian and American version where the Canadian one strips down further than the American one...

Heck, make male and female versions of the target. Or pairs of targets hooked to a central gender-specific figure -- one target undresses the figure, the other target dresses it. I have several parent/child, husband/wife, and boyfriend/girlfriend pairs in club and I can see each member the pairs racing to keep the figure in their preferred state of (un)dress.