Is this issue biomechanical or neurological?

[Epee Scherma]

A student of mine has trouble aligning her feet properly. She's eleven years old. The feet are in a T position then L. I've tried everything to fix this issue and haven't solved it yet. I thought it was an issue with biomechanics at first, so I went through my own troubleshooting:
1. Are her shoulders, chest, trunk in line with hips (not twisted to full or back) and back straight?
Yes. I have visually checked their positions and have done a number of exercises in the past that help a young student learn the en garde position.
2. Are her hips level, and not rotated out of the natural position?
Yes. I have her stand in attention position and let her recognize her hip position for a few minutes, and then asked her to hold this hip position for en guard, it looks perfect.
3. Are her knees in the proper alignment over the feet?
Yes to some degree. Her back knee is more forwards, over the inside of her shoe rather than precisely over the shoe laces. I allow this to happen because as we know, everyone's bodies are naturally a little different. Some people's knees are closer together ("knock-kneed") or wider apart. She felt very uncomfortable if I attempted to correct the back knee. Keep in mind the difference we are talking about is like 85 degrees versus 90 degrees.

So I consider her knees properly aligned for her as an individual.

So I was out of fix it ideas in terms of the biomechanics and am ready to conclude she just needs to create the neurological control to put her feet in the right position.

If I ask her to simply correct the problem she will fix it for say 5-10 steps before they go back to the original bad habit.

What are your thoughts?

[erooMynohtnA]

I don't really understand what you mean by T and L position.

How long has this problem been happening? If it's been a couple weeks or a month, I really wouldn't worry about it. I'd just emphasize correcting her foot position in all the lessons, drills, and bouts she has.

If it's been several months to a year, I'd try making her take an extra wide, extra low en garde position and correct her feet every misstep. If she's learned the wrong position, I think that would help her re-learn the correct foot placement.

If she can maintain the position comfortably in a static situation, I don't think it's biomechanical. However, I have seen some really good fencers who couldn't keep their feet aligned, and their biomechanical "disadvantage" wasn't a problem for them. I don't see a problem with foot position as long as the fencer is able to move effectively. I'm all for beauty in form, but I'm also all for being pragmatic, is her foot position hindering her fencing?

[the ancient one]

Perhaps it is a strength issue.
That problem is not always obvious.
If it is, after her general conditioning improves
she will have greater control over her position.
At 11 yo there seems to often be some muscle strength imbalance.

Is it a big issue?
Can she do the normal footwork with balance,
and lunge without twisting the trunk or dropping the shoulder etc...

[RITFencing]

The Ancient One hit on what I think the problem is... she's 11.

Don't expect perfect footwork out of her. So long as she can move well, this will eventually be fixed when she gets older. Just make sure she is on balance and can move back and forth, and don't worry about the fine details.

I have a problem getting nit picky with students of that age as well, but the truth is many simply don't yet have the fine motor skills necessary to be really good fencers. Right now, I would suggest that you focus on making fencing really fun for her (footwork games are great, and with things like red light/green light, you can also work on her balance and make her get better while she thinks she's just having fun. Sneaky, sneaky ) and worry about fixing smaller technical issues when she's a bit older.

[Epee Scherma]

I'd say her foot position isn't hindering her fencing or balance. So maybe you guys are right I should let it fly for a little while.
To clarify for erooMynhtnA what I meant by T versus L is that her front foot is more inside than in a perpendicular heel to heel position.

I shoulda mentioned -- later today I took her for a lesson and asked her to close her eyes and concentrate solely on her body position/movements as she slowly moved up and down the strip. It was much more succesful, but the bad habit would still show up eventually.

[qatet]

Might also be worth checking if she has any odd alignment in her body. Fencing coaches are often the ones to first notice these things. At my club we have had occasion to inform parents that their child has palsy, that their child has their knees on slightly sideways, etc. - things that aren't necessarily noticed in other activities.

While I agree that making fencing (and physical activity in general) fun is the coach's primary job, I disagree with the idea that form can be vaguely ignored and sorted out later. Fine motor control, like fingers, might be beyond the reach of some youngsters of that age, but something like alignment of the feet is pretty large muscles groups, and well within the capabilities of most 11-year-olds. (We've certainly had kids of that age and younger retake their footwork exam for lesser sins, and having to do so reinforces for them that we do really mean for them to concentrate on their form, not the just treacherous, evil, wily parts of the distance games that we use as testing material.) The more time somebody spends practicing something incorrectly, the harder it is to fix it later, and what doesn't seem like a great fault at slow speeds can blossom into balance problems when the student amps it up with the desire to hit.

You say that she can fix it for 5-10 steps - good! That says that if she really concentrates on it she can do it. Encourage her to work in short bursts where she can maintain that concentration. Teach her how to work with a mirror so she can see her feet without looking down and throwing it out of alignment. Preferably she would work with a mirror and a line on the floor, lining up her heels on the line. Then have her do a step or two with eyes closed, and then open them to check her alignment. If there's no way to set that up at home, she could practice along the edge of something that would give her tactile feedback - like doing footwork next to the raised edge of a carpet. If her foot starts to drift behind she'll feel the carpet.

[the ancient one]

Originally Posted by qatet

"....well within the capabilities of most 11-year-olds..."

And herein is the problem: We do not all develop on the same time scale.

Four elements to consider:

skeletal; do the necessary DOF exist
muscular; is the strength and range of motion present
neurological; balance, perception, free of pain/inhibitory response
emotional/psychological; motivation, interest, frustration, self-esteem

...add more if you want.

On a lesson to lesson basis you need to focus on a few things at a time and give a lower level of attention to others. You develop the total picture over a longer time than 15 or 20 minutes.

Perhaps our views are exactly the same? I insist on perfect execution as well, but what time scale are we talking about. Each second, or over months?

What is appropriate for an 11 year old and a 21 or 28 year old is not the same. I would also point out that there are very few fencers that couldn't be picked apart by a Master and rendered a self-doubting nervous wreck. But-they (hopefully) don't do that because it serves no purpose. They walk a fine line of criticism and encouragement at all levels and all ages. Even when they seem tough, believe me they are pulling their punches. What I am trying to say is you have to cultivate all of the skills without destroying the students interest and belief that they can succeed; and that takes time.

Take a look at the Canadian coaches manual, especially chapters 10-12.

http://www.fencing.ca/coaching_manua...ach_manual.pdf

There is a lot of good material on this site.

[parrythis]

She's eleven. Kids at that age are not typically very self-aware. Keep working with her but do so patiently. The problem will resolve itself eventually.

[ysbadadden]

Originally Posted by Epee Scherma

A student of mine has trouble aligning her feet properly. She's eleven years old. The feet are in a T position then L. ...

I know that the feet are supposed to be in an "L:" feet at 90 degrees, heels in line with direction of front foot.

But why? Is this the most efficient position for absolutely everyone? It can't affect the advance and retreat much. ... or the fleche ... and as for the efficiency of the lunge, wouldn't that depend on 1) the relation (and direction) of the feet when the lunge landed, not when it began, and 2) (maybe) where on the back foot the fencer pushes off to make the lunge.

Yes, I've seen fencers whose feet aren't classically aligned whose lunge is diagonal, not straight ahead. But I've seen others whose lunge is straight.

Why exactly does it matter?

[D'Artag-NOT]

Originally Posted by ysbadadden

Yes, I've seen fencers whose feet aren't classically aligned whose lunge is diagonal, not straight ahead. But I've seen others whose lunge is straight.

Why exactly does it matter?

One reason it matters, especially for female fencers, is that a diagonal lunge can stress or even tear the anterior cruciate ligament and put the fencer out of action for months. Women are especially prone to ACL injuries.

[Epee Scherma]

Originally Posted by qatet

If there's no way to set that up at home, she could practice along the edge of something that would give her tactile feedback - like doing footwork next to the raised edge of a carpet. If her foot starts to drift behind she'll feel the carpet.

Qatet I tried this today with a very thin piece of board about the width of a balance beam. Additionally, used a blindfold so she solely concentrates on the movement, balance and position by feeling. She did this for 10 minutes and was as happy as I was to see her problem was fixed. Later that day I had her advancing and retreating without the tactile aid or blindfold and her alignment issue has been corrected. I'm sure I will still have to do this a few times in the future, but the improvement was astronomical. She never made the alignment mistake again for the rest of the day.

Originally Posted by the ancient one

And herein is the problem: We do not all develop on the same time scale.
(...)
What I am trying to say is you have to cultivate all of the skills without destroying the students interest and belief that they can succeed; and that takes time.

ancient one, I agree that you have to cultivate without destroying the passion. While the coach generally has to be a nag-whore its equally essential to keep the student passionate for their sport. You also make a very good point about the students who become very self doubting in their fencing pulling their punches. I've noticed this particularly happens with certain achieving personalities coupled with a coach or master who has little regard for the chemistry of the relation.

Originally Posted by ysbadadden

I know that the feet are supposed to be in an "L:" feet at 90 degrees, heels in line with direction of front foot.
But why?

To name a few: ease of direction change, mobility, balance, production of dynamic motion, balance, and the fact that the rest of your en garde position can be affected by your feet position. You don't necessarily have to have it exactly 90 degrees. Everyone's bodies and preferences are a little different, but whether these deviations should be accepted depends on the fencer's age and natural tendencies. My Fencing Master had taught me children should be taught in a very classical position in their first couple of years.

Originally Posted by ysbadadden

Is this the most efficient position for absolutely everyone?

No. Every fencer becomes a special, beautiful and unique snowflake eventually.

Originally Posted by ysbadadden

It can't affect the advance and retreat much. ... or the fleche ...

Steps and fleche are affected by your feet position because of your balance and movement efficiency. The physics of this position are sound. If you would like to test this try running backwards and then making a fleche. OK now try retreating backwards and then fleching. Which transition time was shorter?

Originally Posted by ysbadadden

and as for the efficiency of the lunge, wouldn't that depend on 1) the relation (and direction) of the feet when the lunge landed, not when it began,

The lunge is a movement and a position. The relation of the feet are important to its efficiency in landing as well as in travel to said point.

Originally Posted by ysbadadden

and 2) (maybe) where on the back foot the fencer pushes off to make the lunge.

Yeah the back foot plays in part of the efficiency. I say launch with the ball of the foot. It creates a more dynamic drive off the ground because the transfer of force is over a smaller area. This coupled with the pushing off the forefoot can contribute to making a very long and explosive lunge.

Originally Posted by ysbadadden

Yes, I've seen fencers whose feet aren't classically aligned whose lunge is diagonal, not straight ahead. But I've seen others whose lunge is straight. Why exactly does it matter?

Dude all that matters is you make the touch and become Champ eee on!

But if you really wanna know... one reason has to do with alignment of point to intended target of the body is not shooting directly at it. There are other issues associated here too but I'm sure some other coach could clarify.

[Teme]

If I may add: the purpose of keeping the heels on the 'fencing line' stems from the fact that thus your center of balance is
1.) between you heels
2.) on the line of your movement

since it's the only place for it that allows you to excert maximum power to accelarate you mass around, all the good things Epee Scherma mentioned will follow. Whereas, if your other heel deviates from that line, so does your center of gravity, which means any acceleration will not be towards/away from your opponent, in which case they either have to be exxagerated (to achieve the same distance) or use angular forces not entirely beneficial to your joints and ligaments.

[ysbadadden]

1) But a whole lot of us fence with the rear toe pointed slightly forward, the ball of the rear foot weighted, and the rear heel off the ground. (Some of us are up on our front toes as well.) That puts the center of balance between the ball of the rear foot and the point of contact of the front foot. So if the fencing line is to be straight ahead, or if our mass is to be moved straight ahead, then the line should be between the two points of contact, not between the two heels.

2) It's not lunging diagonally that stresses the front knee; it's having the front knee collapse inward in the en garde position, and therefore subsequently in the lunge position.

Originally Posted by Teme

If I may add: the purpose of keeping the heels on the 'fencing line' stems from the fact that thus your center of balance is
1.) between you heels
2.) on the line of your movement

since it's the only place for it that allows you to excert maximum power to accelarate you mass around, all the good things Epee Scherma mentioned will follow. Whereas, if your other heel deviates from that line, so does your center of gravity, which means any acceleration will not be towards/away from your opponent, in which case they either have to be exxagerated (to achieve the same distance) or use angular forces not entirely beneficial to your joints and ligaments.

[JEC]

You might consider referring her to a podiatrist. Often, people do corrections on their posture when the problem begins in the feet. Custom insoles can make a huge difference. In some cases, the position might be because of knee or hip angulation. As a neurologist, I find it unlikely that she has a neurological issue based on your description. It seems to me that it is a biomechanical issue at either one of the lower extremity joints or at a muscle insertion point. If she is ok biomechanically, only then, it might be useful to have a neurological assessment.