Mask Question

[jbenjamin]

will a mask still pass inspections if the "tongue" is broken, plus the velcro straps are falling apart??

[Coldfire]

First of all forget about whether it will pass or not. Will it even stay on your head? I wouldnt fence with a mask that didnt have a tongue and on top of that the strap was falling apart.

Well the strap is required on all masks I believe so if it isnt in good condition I dont think they woudl pass it. Im not an expert though.

[Purple Fencer]

The straps can be fixed...if you were to tie something to the frame that served the same purpose, I'd let it go, depending on what you did.

The broken tongue? negative...I did not pass a mask a couple of weeks back for just that thing.

I did NOT write "FAIL" across the bib, tho. it was a school club mask, so I held it until the coach showed up, then told him to see f he could get the welds redone, since the rest of the mask seemed ok.

[yeoldearmourer]

I repair them with a new tongue that I make and weld it in place as good as news. Cost is high but I do a good job at

[Rick Shellhouse]

I did NOT write "FAIL" across the bib, tho. it was a school club mask, so I held it until the coach showed up, then told him to see f he could get the welds redone, since the rest of the mask seemed ok.

Purple....I would have marked it somehow....recently I was assisting in mask checking...had a sabre mask fail....as there was no FOC around to destroy the mask I asked the parents and fencer could I mark it...they said yes....I marked a BIIIG green X across the mask...

Later I walk to teh on guard line and look up at the otehr fencer to see the large green X staring at me....

so even marking sometimes doesnt keep fencers from fencing in failed equipment...


R

[Purple Fencer]

Purple....I would have marked it somehow....recently I was assisting in mask checking...had a sabre mask fail....as there was no FOC around to destroy the mask I asked the parents and fencer could I mark it...they said yes....I marked a BIIIG green X across the mask...

Later I walk to teh on guard line and look up at the otehr fencer to see the large green X staring at me....

so even marking sometimes doesnt keep fencers from fencing in failed equipment...


R

Well remember...i gave the mask to the team COACH and showed him the tongue flopping around. He;s the kind of guy who WILL pull it off until it gets fixed.

[erooMynohtnA]

Why not just write fail on the part that fails? Such as the bib, the tongue, or the velcro. It keeps them from using it until the part is replaced. If the mesh fails, just destroy it or write fail as big as possible across it.

[Purple Fencer]

Why not just write fail on the part that fails? Such as the bib, the tongue, or the velcro. It keeps them from using it until the part is replaced. If the mesh fails, just destroy it or write fail as big as possible across it.

If I wrote it across the bib, that would've made a bib replacement necessarry....a major pain. Instead, if the coach can get a shop on campus to do the repair, it saves him time, money, AND the mask.

Writing it on the tongue would do the same thing...he;d have to get it recovered, which isn;t such a problem...it would just be a simple sock over the tongue.

However, putting it on the tongue could allow someone to take a truly failed mask to the strip by covering it up....something not worth the effort if it;s on the bib.

[fencerbill]

Yeah, why ruin the bib if it is the mesh or tongue is broken?

Had limited success with fixing tongues on Allstar/Uhlmann. Used the widget they use to make loops on wire rope. They are usually soft alloy with two holes, and one size matches the wire size for Allstar/Uhlmann. Only works where the wires break a distance from the weld. You use one for each side and put both ends of the same side through the widget, then pound the heck out of it. The tongue is then shorter, but not that much.

[erik_blank]

Hummm.. Could the mask be retrofitted with some sort of 3 point strap system similar to the Leon Paul Contour Fit masks (http://shop.fencing.net/ProductDetai...Code=LP%2D280C)? These masks don't have a Toung at all, but it is replaced with the straps and some sort of circular pad in the back where the straps meet.
Seems like a easier solution for people without access to welding/brazing equipment IF it would be legal (I'm not an Armoror).

[HDG]

If I wrote it across the bib, that would've made a bib replacement necessarry....a major pain. Writing it on the tongue would do the same thing...he;d have to get it recovered, which isn;t such a problem...it would just be a simple sock over the tongue.

However, putting it on the tongue could allow someone to take a truly failed mask to the strip by covering it up....something not worth the effort if it;s on the bib.

Yeah, why ruin the bib if it is the mesh or tongue is broken?

I believe the bib was just mentioned as an example of marking a part of the mask if that part of the mask fails, not a suggestion about what to do with this mask.

[fencerbill]

Hummm.. Could the mask be retrofitted with some sort of 3 point strap system similar to the Leon Paul Contour Fit masks (http://shop.fencing.net/ProductDetai...Code=LP%2D280C)? These masks don't have a Toung at all, but it is replaced with the straps and some sort of circular pad in the back where the straps meet.
Seems like a easier solution for people without access to welding/brazing equipment IF it would be legal (I'm not an Armoror).

M.7. Mask. The mask must be made with meshes (space
between the wires) of maximum 2.1 mm and from wires
with a minimum gauge of 1 mm diameter.
Masks, at all weapons, must be made in accordance with
the safety standards described in Appendix A to these
Rules and must carry the quality label specified in those
standards.
When the checks are carried out the person responsible for
them may, if in doubt, ensure that the mesh of the mask,
both at the front and at the sides, is able to withstand,
without permanent deformation, the introduction into the
mesh of a conical instrument, the angle of the surface of
the cone being at 4° to the axis and at a pressure of 12 kg.
A mask which does not comply with the safety
requirements laid down in this article will be rendered
visibly unusable by the weapon checking personnel or the
Referee in the presence of the person who presented the
mask to the weapon check or the team captain of the fencer
concerned.
The bib of the mask must be made with cloth resistant to
1600 Newtons. The mask must include a safety strap at the
rear.
**************

Hard for any armorer to say it didn't comply. Sounds like a good idea.

[twisterfencing]

Rick,

Next time, instead of a green x, write "failed" across the bib. This clearly tells the ref he has a fencer with a bad/unsafe mask.

Gary Spruill

Purple....I would have marked it somehow....recently I was assisting in mask checking...had a sabre mask fail....as there was no FOC around to destroy the mask I asked the parents and fencer could I mark it...they said yes....I marked a BIIIG green X across the mask...

Later I walk to teh on guard line and look up at the otehr fencer to see the large green X staring at me....

so even marking sometimes doesnt keep fencers from fencing in failed equipment...


R

[fencerbill]

Rick,

Next time, instead of a green x, write "failed" across the bib. This clearly tells the ref he has a fencer with a bad/unsafe mask.

Gary Spruill

I guess I have an unusual viewpoint in this discussion. I recondition masks and in doing so, take bibs off and put them back on.

If the mesh fails on a mask it should not be used again. But that doesn't mean that the bib should never be used again.

M.7 has been quoted in a previous posting. The rules of fencing say that the mask "shall be rendered visually unusable". It doesn't say the bib has to be marked.

Take a screwdriver and drive it through thle mesh right where the eyes look through it. Make two holes an inch in diameter. It won't be used again. But the bib could be transferred to a mask of the same type which has a bad bib.

[Rick Shellhouse]

M.7 has been quoted in a previous posting. The rules of fencing say that the mask "shall be rendered visually unusable". It doesn't say the bib has to be marked.

Take a screwdriver and drive it through thle mesh right where the eyes look through it. Make two holes an inch in diameter. It won't be used again. But the bib could be transferred to a mask of the same type which has a bad bib.

You actually can not destroy as in render unusable any gear unless you have or are a FOC (I think that is the term) My father in law has assisted Joe is literally stopping them flat as to render them unusable..but average joe isn't suppose to do that...

And incidentally both bib and mesh failed...


PS Fencer had bought a new mask and it was on the side of the strip..He wasnt wearing it...

Now rep points to whomever can name the infraction and penalty..



R

[Rick Shellhouse]

Rick,

Next time, instead of a green x, write "failed" across the bib. This clearly tells the ref he has a fencer with a bad/unsafe mask.

Gary Spruill

Good idea....but the ref should have checked for "pass" stamps anyhow...then again this same ref told me it didnt matter where your blade was pointing in a sabre attack...fencer had his blade horizontal pointing at the machine....


R

[Joe biebel]

I have not seen anyone quote the specific rule as to how a mask is to be held on. I don't think such a rule exists. If the tongue is broken (or does not exist) but the mask is held securely in place by a strap, it is within the rules and is doing it's job. In the case of the "Paul" masks, since there is only the one system (straps) holding the mask on the head, It is critical that the retaining system work 100% as it is the only thing keeping the mask on.

I went to my first world championships in 1983 and had a favorite (although crappy) mask that the tongue had broken on months before and I had stitched in a 2" wide double layer elastic band. When I went to pick up my gear they would not give me back my mask. Finally, one of the (German) technicians came out with the mask, and with the help of a translator, explained that they would not pass it because it had no tongue and was not safe. I complained that there is no rule regarding method of attachment to the head and that the straps were safer than a tongue. Unconvinced and unwilling to return my mask I offered a demonstration. I took my "regular mask", put it on and threw my head forward and down having it pop off. The technician took the mask and seriously tightened the tongue and handed it back to me. I repeated the demonstration with the same result. I then demonstrated with my "strap only" mask and there was just no way it was coming off accidently. I pointed to each mask with a tongue and said, "not safe, not safe, not safe". Holding my mask up I said, "saaaafe". There were a few nods of agreement as they took my mask back to control. I came back later, and it had not passed the "punch test". At this point I was happy to give up. The technicians asked if they could have the mask and I agreed.

[Purple Fencer]

I have not seen anyone quote the specific rule as to how a mask is to be held on. I don't think such a rule exists. If the tongue is broken (or does not exist) but the mask is held securely in place by a strap, it is within the rules and is doing it's job. In the case of the "Paul" masks, since there is only the one system (straps) holding the mask on the head, It is critical that the retaining system work 100% as it is the only thing keeping the mask on.

I went to my first world championships in 1983 and had a favorite (although crappy) mask that the tongue had broken on months before and I had stitched in a 2" wide double layer elastic band. When I went to pick up my gear they would not give me back my mask. Finally, one of the (German) technicians came out with the mask, and with the help of a translator, explained that they would not pass it because it had no tongue and was not safe. I complained that there is no rule regarding method of attachment to the head and that the straps were safer than a tongue. Unconvinced and unwilling to return my mask I offered a demonstration. I took my "regular mask", put it on and threw my head forward and down having it pop off. The technician took the mask and seriously tightened the tongue and handed it back to me. I repeated the demonstration with the same result. I then demonstrated with my "strap only" mask and there was just no way it was coming off accidently. I pointed to each mask with a tongue and said, "not safe, not safe, not safe". Holding my mask up I said, "saaaafe". There were a few nods of agreement as they took my mask back to control. I came back later, and it had not passed the "punch test". At this point I was happy to give up. The technicians asked if they could have the mask and I agreed.

Interesting story....and you're probably right about the rules.....but in the case i came across, i felt better safe than sorry, which was within my rights as the armorer that day.

[Joe biebel]

Interesting story....and you're probably right about the rules.....but in the case i came across, i felt better safe than sorry, which was within my rights as the armorer that day.

Well Yah! The point is that, just because a mask has a "tongue" or no tongue it must be secure to be usable. The tongue itself is not a requirement in the rules. I have seen masks that were within the rules (in a purely technical sense) that I would not allow to be used. A good example would be a fencer with a perfectly good mask that adheres to all the rules technically, but, the bib wants to fold upwards while wearing it, exposing the neck. Not while I'm reffing. I know I am not a qualified armorer and won't be put in your position, but, if a mask should come along that had a broken tongue and the fencer could demonstrate it's worthiness to me with the strap or whatever, I could not fail it in good conscience.

[twisterfencing]

Bill,

I have a totally diffrent point of view. If a mask is presented to me and is deemed by me as unsafe for any reason, the sharpie is coming out and I am going to make sure anyone within a 20 foot radious can read "failed" on the bib and the mask is staying with me until the meet is over. If they want it back after the meet to hang on the wall, fine, other wise, its getting stomped to insure someone else does not end up with it on their head.

Understand, this is mainly for mesh issues. Of course, if its a tongue, it will stay behind the counter until the end of the meet and given back.

Its all good.

Gary Spruill

I guess I have an unusual viewpoint in this discussion. I recondition masks and in doing so, take bibs off and put them back on.

If the mesh fails on a mask it should not be used again. But that doesn't mean that the bib should never be used again.

M.7 has been quoted in a previous posting. The rules of fencing say that the mask "shall be rendered visually unusable". It doesn't say the bib has to be marked.

Take a screwdriver and drive it through thle mesh right where the eyes look through it. Make two holes an inch in diameter. It won't be used again. But the bib could be transferred to a mask of the same type which has a bad bib.