Attitudes towards Americans

[Fencergrl]

Wingate85 mentions long standing problems with people (Canadians) having a anti-American attitude.

Originally Posted by Wingate85

I don't think so. Canadians spurred on by the Canadian media have had a long standing problem with anti-American attitudes. Americans do not say much about it because we tend to ignore it, or at the very least, shrugg it off. I think it's about time we push back on our so called friends.

Not wanting this discussion to occur in an inappropriate thread I thought I would snip it out and start a thread in the politics section.

So... do any other Americans feel this when they travel, particularly in Canada? If so, do they feel it is/ isn't justified based on the behaviour of other Americans or their government? Or perhaps is the Canadian media largely responsible as Wingate suggests?

[scrapinpeg]

I've never experienced any notable anti-American sentiment while traveling in Canada. On the contrary, people there seemed to be more pro-US than many of the people I meet here in the US.

[Fencergrl]

I too was a little surprised... but then again, I live in an area that relies a great deal on (American) tourism... As for the media....

LOL... I think it is equally critical of American and Canadian politics. Truthfully, I think the Canadian media doesn't try very hard to be critical at all.... they are much more careful than they are with their own government.

I was under the impression, that a great deal of our media is owned by larger American companies... so at one level, it is American media being critical of it's own country in Canada?

[wahrman]

I've spent a significant amount of time in Ontario, Alberta and Newfoundland
and I don't recall noticing anything.

In fact, in Newfoundland most of the people I met didn't care a bit who
issued my passport. They were quite happy to get to know me for me.

Most people I've met all over the world realise that a person from country X
isn't responsible for the behaviour of their government or fellow citizens.

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

I too was a little surprised... but then again, I live in an area that relies a great deal on (American) tourism... As for the media....

LOL... I think it is equally critical of American and Canadian politics. Truthfully, I think the Canadian media doesn't try very hard to be critical at all.... they are much more careful than they are with their own government.

I was under the impression, that a great deal of our media is owned by larger American companies... so at one level, it is American media being critical of it's own country in Canada?

[Fencergrl]

Sometimes I think someone might consider me anti-American.

1) I don't like some of the deals that are made between our countries. I blame our own government *cough Mulroney cough* more than the Americans.

2) I don't like how many American companies own our natural resources... again I blame our own government.

3) Having worked in jobs involving tourists as well as having American bosses, suppliers and customers. I have noticed certain common traits among Americans... but I see that will many countries. I will often roll my eyes at "the Americans"... but I will at other cultures. We are different as countries. I wouldn't want all the cultures around the world to be the same.

4) America is one of the very low on my list of places I would want to live, or to some extent visit. Although my household as way more rifles/weapons than the average Canadian, I ALWAYS feel uncomfortable about being in the US.... I'm sorry it's just something I find hard to get past.

I'm not only nervous about the level of crime... I see more ghettos, more homeless, sooooo... many cars and people. I like my wide open places.

Having said this, I have met some fantastic Americans (on f-net and elsewhere)... yeah they don't have enough U's in their words... but you can't hold their inability to spell colour properly against them.

I don't think I'm unlike many Canadians in my attitude. I think most people get treated at face value.

[wahrman]

But I wouldn't call any of that Anti-American.

You've made some observations about past experiences. If you don't notice
traits that tend to be more common in certain groups of people, you're not
paying attention.

If you start treating people negatively based upon assumptions you've made
before you've met them...well that's different.

After moving from Michigan to California I've noticed that I'm much more like
the average Ontarian in most ways then the average Californian.

So maybe saying American and Canadian is an over simplification???

"wide open places" not too much of that in Toronto or Montreal.
Wyoming on the other hand, that's pretty much all wide open space.

Really though, you are doing yourself a disservice if you lump any place as
large as the US or Canada into one group.

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

Sometimes I think someone might consider me anti-American.

1) I don't like some of the deals that are made between our countries. I blame our own government *cough Mulroney cough* more than the Americans.

<snip>

I don't think I'm unlike many Canadians in my attitude. I think most people get treated at face value.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by wahrman

"wide open places" not too much of that in Toronto or Montreal. Wyoming on the other hand, that's pretty much all wide open space.

I should have wrote less densely populated spaces. Toronto, is included in that category... BTW. Even Vancouver to some extent (although the scenery makes up for it). Montreal... never been, but I suspect it's also pretty crowded.

From what I have seen of the US, it's a lot more crowded than Canada. Yeah there's small towns, and empty spaces.... Canada just seems to have more of it.

One thing I have noticed since being on f-net... I am much more likely to talk positive about Canada/ Canadians.... this weird patriotism that came out of no where...

[scrapinpeg]

Check out the US with Google Earth. The overwhelming majority of the land mass is sparsely populated. It's only in the metropolitan areas that there is dense population (particularly the DC-Philly-NYC-Boston megalopolis, the LA metropolis, and the San Francisco area). Those are thin strips of a very large place. Out west, there are ranches bigger than those metropolises.

And the places where you're likely to feel uncomfortable, based on your posts, are small portions of those metropolitan areas. Pretty much just the run-down blighted bits, which you don't really need to visit in the first place.

Even in the denser places, people are pretty decent on the whole. There is a very different etiquette in densely-populated areas, though, which may seem like rudeness to a person of more rural upbringing. It cuts both ways. As Ron Burgundy said, "when in Rome..."

[latenight]

I've only noticed it in Quebec........

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by latenight

I've only noticed it in Quebec........

We ALL notice it in Quebec. But we forgive them since they're the only real reason that you guys won't invade.

As to American attitudes, I dislike a number of people who believe that because the US does it, it is good and how notions like that worm their way into our public decision making framework.

There are many decisions that we as Canadians take that we make simply because we sleep in the same room as the 800lb gorilla named "America". Were it otherwise, the decisions would be different. The recent DST change, to name one, much of your foreign policy to name another.

But we resent our dependance on you and wish there were some acknowledgement of our contributions to your life. That many of your citizens can't find us on a map or confuse us with being a US state, really rankles. And so whenever you guys do something stupid, we like to point out that we were right and you weren't, if only to distance ourselves from the stupidity. You forget that your decisions often become our decisions merely by our proximity to you.

And yes, in many ways, it's national sibling rivalry. Our bigger strong cooler brother gets all the attention while we have to live in their shadow. We're the nerdy younger brother. But we are brothers, you and us, and when the chips are down, even though you piss us off, we've got your back.

One day we'll both grow up and realise that family is all we've got.

James.

[wahrman]

Funny you put it that way. I don't how many times I've been the "defender"
of Canada in conversations. It really feels like no is allowed to pick on my
brother but me.

Originally Posted by jBirch

And yes, in many ways, it's national sibling rivalry. Our bigger strong cooler brother gets all the attention while we have to live in their shadow. We're the nerdy younger brother. But we are brothers, you and us, and when the chips are down, even though you piss us off, we've got your back.

One day we'll both grow up and realise that family is all we've got.

James.

[wahrman]

Maybe so, but Québec makes up for it by being so damn cool.

Also, Montréal has a fantastic music scene these days.

And as I've said before, Poutine!

Originally Posted by jBirch

We ALL notice it in Quebec. But we forgive them since they're the only real reason that you guys won't invade.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

I'm not only nervous about the level of crime... I see more ghettos, more homeless, sooooo... many cars and people. I like my wide open places.

Crime... ghettos... homeless... ever been through Richmond? Seriously, Canadian cities have just the same kind of problems that American cities do, or any large city worldwide, for that matter.

Having been raised in Canada & the US, about a 50/50 split (actually I've been in the US longer now) I can tell you I don't see a huge difference between the countries. I also don't see a lot of anti American sentiment when I go to Canada. Of course it's not overwhelmingly pro American either, but it's not like France where you can be refused service for being American. Canadians generally understand that most Americans don't support the government's foreign policies.

I used to get a lot of anti Canadianism when I was younger, but nowadays I find the prevailing opinion is that Canada is the "suck-free version of America". Mainly because of the aforementioned unpopular US government, and the more liberal Canadian laws/culture. Of course, a lot of people's only experience with Canada is spring break in Montreal, which of course leaves a positive impression on any underage college student.

[parrythis]

As a person who lives across the Niagara River from Canada, I visit Ontario frequently. I often fence there, sometimes play tourist, occasionally visit the casinos, and often seek out entertainment of all kinds there.

I have never felt any direct animosity towards me due to my American citizenship. In fact, when 9/11 happened, I received some of the most sincere, deep, heart-felt empathy I have ever felt from my Canadian friends - and all because I was an American citizen.

I have, however, picked up on animosity towards the American government and its current agenda. I cannot say that I am surprised.

I find that most Americans are either ignorant or uncaring about how we are perceived by the rest of the world. This I blame on what I call the American "Pop-40 News Machine". If you cruise around the various news shows, you find the same stories wherever you go. It's as if someone, somewhere, has decided what news we need to see and has made a list and if something is not on that list, we're not going to see it. There could be a bloody rebellion in some 3rd world country and 10s of thousands of people killed, but if on that same day some congressman got caught in a sex scandal, we will never hear about the rebellion.

So, to answer your question, anti-American? On an individual level - no. On a political level - yes.

[latenight]

Originally Posted by parrythis

, and often seek out entertainment of all kinds there.

Ballet fan, huh?

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Crime... ghettos... homeless... ever been through Richmond? Seriously, Canadian cities have just the same kind of problems that American cities do, or any large city worldwide, for that matter.

I didn't say there wasn't the same problems in Canada, just that with a larger population base you see more of these problems. Your cities are larger. It is not a perception, it's a fact. If Canada had cities the size of New York, LA, Chicago etc... we would have similar issues.

I don't like big cities.... if it makes you feel better, I dislike Toronto as much as I dislike any American city equal or larger in size. All my business travel has been to cities, so that is where my "American experience" mostly lays. As a result, I have had little desire to take my vacations there or live there.

I'm okay with this... I'm not opposed to going to the US. I'll happily travel there to visit friends or go to a fencing tournament, or go on business. The US holds little appeal for me to visit for the sake of visiting.... unlike many other countries I would love to see.

Perhaps it's because our countries are very similar... there's a lack of any substantial difference in culture. We also both lack a great deal of history... there are no pyramids, or buildings built during the Medieval times...

I've had several siblings take years off to travel extensively throughout the US... I simply haven't had the desire to do this. I'm not saying I won't, I'm just saying nothing has drawn me there yet... unlike many other places that draw me towards them... the US doesn't.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by latenight

Ballet fan, huh?

LOL... I thought the same thing when I read it.

[jeff]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

Perhaps it's because our countries are very similar... there's a lack of any substantial difference in culture. We also both lack a great deal of history... there are no pyramids, or buildings built during the Medieval times...

As a non-city type of person, perhaps you could visit some of our great outdoors - of course, you have plenty of great outdoors too - but they're different. You might very much enjoy seeing the Grand Canyon or Monument Valley or Arches National Monument or the saguaro forests near Tucson (just naming some of the hot dry places - you might not get much of that!). Or see the wine growing areas in Napa or Oregon, or the Everglades. Plenty of stuff for non-urbanites, though I personally think one should visit the great cities like NY and SF.

For what it's worth: (a) I've been to Canada on both business and pleasure, and while it's not my first choice to visit, it's pleasant, and I've never had any anti-American hassle, and (b) I've never been subjected to anti-American aggravation overseas, even in Paris, contrary to cliche. Be polite with people, try to speak a few words in their language, don't act like a jerk (see jerk-story below) and you generally do fine.

Jerk story: was having a lovely lunch on the Champs-Elysee at Fouquet's with my wife. A loud party of overweight Americans is coming down the street (Beam ESP thoughts at them: "Please don't come in here!" "Please don't come in here!"). They come in. ("Please don't sit near us!" "Please don't sit near us!") The sit at the next table, and then loudly order French Fries and Coca-Cola at an elegant restaurant (where, FWIW, Sarkozy dined on election night). It's oafs like that that make the rest of us look bad.

OTOH, I do rather enjoy the smug assumption in some of this thread's posts that of course the provincial, rude, gauche fools with too much money and a "wrong" foreign policy must be those darned Yanks. Not that *ahem* anyone is being a little too self-satisfied than is good for them...