Attitudes towards Americans

[jeff]

While many languages are spoken in NY, how many are spoken by any one New Yorker? Any idea of the proportion of New Yorkers who can speak anything else than English and the language(s) of the parents well?

The ad was for hiring teachers, so it clearly is an important subject. I have no statistics about how multilingual we are beyod English and ethnic origin language. I imagine it's more than in cities not blessed with such cultural diversity, because here there's at least some value to picking up even a few words in other languages.

Remember, in the US, unlike Europe, there really is no compelling need to learn another language. It's unfortunate perhaps, and I think that it's a mark of a cultured, educated individual, but it's not necessary, and people don't do en-masse what they don't need to do. Compare with Scandinavia, where there are only a few million speakers of the local language, and hence a necessity to learn English as a 2nd language. Or most of Europe, where borders with a country speaking a different languag a a car drive or train ride away. It's different here.

How mush is a melting pot, and how much is a salad bowl? In which ways can you personally say that you have been influenced by cultures other than English and/or those of you ancestors? For how many people does that influence only lead to eating other types of food, and for how many does it lead to something more profound?

I've very much been influenced by other cultures here, and it enriches my life, far beyond the exotic food tourist level. I don't think I'm unique in this. I'm not a working sociologist so have no stats, but I get the strong impression that _many_ people do.

[Allen Evans]

Would anyone like to comment or compare the level of cultural diversity in major cities in the USA? Are there places you can go and almost immerse yourself in a culture? Where the signage, the food, the language spoken on the street etc... is not English?

If you don't have cable TV, can you still get shows where English isn't spoken?

Are there huge celebrations for various ethnic and religious holidays? Greek Fests? Chinese New Year? etc.

Speaking from only two experiances -- living in Seattle and traveling often in San Francisco -- in both cases I found myself in parts of both cities where English was a second language for the people I was interacting with. Certainly in both cities, their Chinatowns have areas that feel more like another country than the United States, though it's impossible to avoid all overt signs of "America".

Does anyone NOT have cable/satellite television in the United States anymore? I don't know anyone who isn't working off of cable or satellite television, so I don't know if there are broadcast shows in other languages, though I would be very surprised if some areas (like Texas and Arizona) don't have broadcast programs in Spanish.

In Seattle, both Chinese New Year and Norweign independance Day are actively celebrated in their respective neighborhoods. I'm sure they are not the exception.

There is always a lot of talk about Americans not being able to find places on a map, that Americans often ignorant of other people and other cultures. Yet, I wonder how much ANY citizen of any country knows about the politics/culture/behavior of other countries? I don't think it would be too hard to find statements made in the press in other countries that shows a profound misunderstanding of Western/American cultures. Certainly some of the foreign tourists I've come in contact with (especially while living in Alaska) had some very odd beliefs about the United States in general, and Alaska in particular.

As fencers, we're often appalled by some of the things we hear and read about our fellow citizens. "How can people (believe/ignore/not know) that?" But as fencers, we're usually better educated and travelled than the average bear, and we tend to forget that.

Allen Evans

[wahrman]

I just remembered one curiosity that find pretty cool.

There is an area in Michigan where Street signs, etc are in Finnish.
They even have the only Finnish language, broadcast TV station in the US.

[Durando]

There is always a lot of talk about Americans not being able to find places on a map, that Americans often ignorant of other people and other cultures. Yet, I wonder how much ANY citizen of any country knows about the politics/culture/behavior of other countries?

You will therefore be shocked to find out that French people learn the United States state capitols in school. After a certain age they are hard pressed to name seat of government in, say, Kansas. But still. I cannot for the life of me figure out why this is taught. Myself, I cannot name the administrative seats of the regions. In fact, I cannot name the regions!

But your point is well taken. People everywhere resort to clichés and generalizations right away. What I've observed is a weird defensiveness among travelinig Americans such that the seem to be testing the locals for any minor anitamericanism they can report back to their slide show audiences.

You say Alaska is bigger than Texas? No way in hill you're going to get me to speak Alaskonic, no matter how big it gets.

[parrythis]

There is always a lot of talk about Americans not being able to find places on a map...

In High School, one year of my education included a course named "Geography". The teacher chose to spend the entire year teaching us about the kings and queens of medeviel Europe. The final exam (provided by the state of New York) was mainly about the economies of South America and Australia.

Thank you (with extreme sarcasm) Mr. Cook.

Yes, I am still pissed about that 40 years later.

With teachers like that, is it any wonder we are ignorant of the cultures and economies of the world?

[Fencergrl]

I read several of your comments as alluding to the (supposedly) superior education and manners of Canadians.

Honestly Jeff... I have no idea who's education system is better or not. Although I suspect they are similar (with the exception of Parrythis' Mr. Cook).

What throws me off is when I see Americans game shows demonstrating ignorance... it makes me question this assumption. I ask questions because I'm curious. I talk about Canada because I assume others are curious and it gives them something to compare their country to.

As for the manners... meh... I've met rude Canadians and I've met rude Americans. If I make comments about "Polite Canadians" chances are, my tongue is firmly in my cheek. In general, the vast majority of my comments on Canadians is playing up to the stereotype... or trying to create silly myths about my country.... we really do eat penguins you know...

I don't really take offense, but it illustrates what I've been talking about.

Glad you don't... most is intended to be light hearted or just my natural curiousity. I like finding out about people from ALL countries.

Thinking about entire countries in terms of cliches should be avoided, and examples of "well, we are really better at X and Y than those people across the border" should be closely examined for that wee hint of condescention. Don't you think so?

I suppose if the humour isn't recognized, I can see how it can be taken the wrong way.

Having said that.... I am aware that I've had a weird side-effect from being on f-net. Never in my life have I ever been particularly “country proud”. I like my country, but never felt the need to announce it.

After being here, and reading a lot of “Rah-rah USA"... or “We could invade Canada if we really wanted to” stuff… I started reacting... albeit playfully, by becoming “pro-Canadian”. Some of this reaction seeps into serious conversations as well, as it became part of the Fencergrl persona (ie..a habit while on f-net).

It’s quite obvious, that Wingate85 is anti-Canadian. <shrug> I’m okay with that, he’s unlikely to visit Canada and that’s best for everyone involved.

As you know… it is hard to have someone say negative things about your country and not speak up or question the validity of the statements.

Which is why I started this thread. I was surprised by what he said. Rather than assume his perception is uncommon, and shrug it off; I wanted to see what other American’s experiences were like.

[sreckiki]

It’s quite obvious, that Wingate85 is anti-Canadian.

... and I would say anti-European too since what he wrote in another thread.

But I can't deny that the guy has a certain logic because from his point of view, we, inhabitants of sub-countries like Canada or France, are just a bunch of anti-American jealous dudes so all that makes sense!

[sionnach]

A statement like that is just plain flame bait. There is no country that is THE best.
What are your criteria? How many countries did you survey?

*cough* http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4020523.stm *cough*

I work in an airport and deal with people from almost every nationality. Americans are among the nicest people there are, definitely in the top 5. Not the most worldly of people though. They are completely matched by canadians in both these fields.

[diplomacy]These are just my observations of the people passing through my airport and I of course am not claiming them as fact [/diplomacy]

As for attitudes towards Americans.... well i think most of us western europeans expect americans to be dim, the problem is this proves true too often :/

[Fencergrl]

... and I would say anti-European too since what he wrote in another thread.

I'm in good company then!

[wahrman]

I suspect this was not the poll Wingate85 was referring to.

The UK at 29.

Oh well, I still love you London and Edinburgh.

*cough* http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4020523.stm *cough*

[Fencergrl]

... inhabitants of sub-countries like Canada or France,

Perhaps Wingy has "Francophonephobia" … an irrational fear of the French.

Perhaps he’s dealing with it by taking up fencing… after all French is the language of fencing… He might have started by eating French fries, then French toast… he soon took to wearing a French maid outfit… it’s a slow process.

I imagine his first bouts in fencing were difficult…

enguarde… ok Wing drown the French out by humming the star spangled banner ….prêt……, oh say can you... allez…. see by the… godddamit! The bastard hit me! Okay focus, Wingbaby… focus… ignore that blasted French.... enguarde...gosh this French maid outfit is starting to itch.... prêt.....

[PeterGustafsson]

*cough* http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4020523.stm *cough*

From that link:
1 Ireland
2 Switzerland
3 Norway
4 Luxembourg
5 Sweden
6 Australia
7 Iceland
8 Italy
9 Denmark
10 Spain

Go Scandinavia!

I work in an airport and deal with people from almost every nationality. Americans are among the nicest people there are, definitely in the top 5. Not the most worldly of people though. They are completely matched by canadians in both these fields.

So, if you would list the 5 rudest nationalities - in your experience, how would that list look?

[diplomacy]These are just my observations of the people passing through my airport and I of course am not claiming them as fact [/diplomacy]

As for attitudes towards Americans.... well I think most of us western europeans expect americans to be dim, the problem is this proves true too often :/

A significant proportion of the smarter Americans which travel abroad either do not advertize that fact, or claim to be, for example, Canadian. Why? Not wishing to be associated with GWB when outside of USA, prudence in not attracting interest from potential terrorists, and knowledge of how Americans are percieved in many countries.

That leaves the dumb/foolhardy/etc Americans to wear their nationality on their sleeve while abroad, perpetuating the perception. Furthermore, Canada can take credit for the better behavior of smart Americans.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Shi no Tenshi]

enguarde… ok Wing drown the French out by humming the star spangled banner ….prêt……, oh say can you... allez…. see by the… godddamit! The bastard hit me! Okay focus, Wingbaby… focus… ignore that blasted French.... enguarde...gosh this French maid outfit is starting to itch.... prêt.....

Just the thought of somebody doing that cracks me up. We have somebody in our club that kinda has that attitude, but he isn't the brightest guy around so we tend to ignore him anyway.

[sionnach]

So, if you would list the 5 rudest nationalities - in your experience, how would that list look?

1. Israel
2. England
3. Spain
4. France
5. Italy

It seems the further away you're travelling the less rude you are (: Except in the case of #1 which is a country mile ahead of the others :/

[Inquartata]

Remember, in the US, unlike Europe, there really is no compelling need to learn another language.

Give it another 20 years and there will be. Already one can have difficulty in parts of most big cities without some Spanish, at least if one is trying to deal with adults. Usually one can find a child to translate if need be.

Does anyone NOT have cable/satellite television in the United States anymore? I don't know anyone who isn't working off of cable or satellite television

Now you do.

so I don't know if there are broadcast shows in other languages, though I would be very surprised if some areas (like Texas and Arizona) don't have broadcast programs in Spanish.

There are at least 3 Spanish-language broadcast televison channels in my city, and probably a dozen FM radio stations.

Yet, I wonder how much ANY citizen of any country knows about the politics/culture/behavior of other countries?

Years ago, I read an article on the subject. One of the more amusing examples was a classroom of French schoolchildren who were asked to draw a map of the United States. They did. Apparently they felt quite strongly that New York City took up about a third of the country, with the remaining 2/3 made up of Texas and California.

[Allen Evans]

You will therefore be shocked to find out that French people learn the United States state capitols in school. <snip> You say Alaska is bigger than Texas? No way in hill you're going to get me to speak Alaskonic, no matter how big it gets.

I am shocked. What possible use is that to the average French schoolchild?

Alaska is a funny state. Even the US forgets it's part of the US sometimes I was once denied a credit card because I wasn't a "citizen of the United States". Others have similar stories. This fuels a sort of "we're not with them" attitude in Alaskan's concerning the rest of the US, at times.

I think that one of the reasons it's easy to poke fun at the lack of knowlege American's have about the world in general and their country in particular is that fact that Americans seem so willing to constantly demonstrate that ignorance in the mass media. Often at the drop of a hat. I think this helps fuel a certain pre-disposition in others towards believing that American's, generally, are ignorant about their country and the world, since American television seems to reach everywhere.


(In response to a comment I made about not knowing anyone who didn't have satellite or cable tv, Inquartata replies

Now you do.

But since I don't know you, I'm safe from your Luddite beliefs!

AE

[Gav]

I suspect this was not the poll Wingate85 was referring to.

The UK at 29.

Oh well, I still love you London and Edinburgh.

Thanks; but we don't love you.

[Inquartata]

Ah, another dysfunctional relationship...

[wahrman]

heh, I was denied auto insurance on Alberta because my licence at the time
was from California. Being from California, I obviously had never seen snow.

I wasn't able to convince her that it does in fact snow in California and even
has some pretty decent skiing.

I think lady had watched too much "Bay Watch".

I am
Alaska is a funny state. Even the US forgets it's part of the US sometimes I was once denied a credit card because I wasn't a "citizen of the United States". Others have similar stories. This fuels a sort of "we're not with them" attitude in Alaskan's concerning the rest of the US, at times.

[wahrman]

I wondered why you never phoned.

Thanks; but we don't love you.