Attitudes towards Americans

[wahrman]

There are large parts of San Francisco where signs are in English, Spanish and Chinese.
Where I live a little farther south, signs, ATMs, etc are often in English, Spanish and Russian.

San Francisco's Chinese and Mexican areas aren't the biggest in the US yet you can forget
that you are in the US.

Detroit has neighbourhoods where signs are in Arabic (and North America's largest Mosque),
as well as others where Polish, Spanish or Tagalog are seen and heard.

Farther north in Michigan we watched the Montreal CBC station and Deutsche Welle
(German TV). We also had a German language newspaper published in Michigan.

I highly recommend Detroit/Windsor's combined 4th of July/Canada Day party by the way.

Back at school in Kalamazoo we always had a great big Diwali festival.

I claim that it is impossible to spend a day in the Bay Area and not hear at
least three other languages spoken.

More likely you'll hear a dozen.

Would anyone like to comment or compare the level of cultural diversity in major cities in the USA? Are there places you can go and almost immerse yourself in a culture? Where the signage, the food, the language spoken on the street etc... is not English?

If you don't have cable TV, can you still get shows where English isn't spoken?

Are there huge celebrations for various ethnic and religious holidays? Greek Fests? Chinese New Year? etc..

[Fencergrl]

Sigh! ... I thought perhaps I was finally going to understand why some Americans are ignorant about other cultures....

I was hoping to walk away with some sort of understanding of the "Ugly American" syndrome.

[jeff]

Would anyone like to comment or compare the level of cultural diversity in major cities in the USA? Are there places you can go and almost immerse yourself in a culture? Where the signage, the food, the language spoken on the street etc... is not English?

If you don't have cable TV, can you still get shows where English isn't spoken?

Are there huge celebrations for various ethnic and religious holidays? Greek Fests? Chinese New Year? etc..

There's an advert in the local newspapers that "There are more languages spoken in New York than in the Olympics". I think this area has more cultural and ethnic diversity than any other place in the world. You can get newspapers, radio, TV for many ethnicities, and neighborhoods that are: Cuban, Puerto Rican, Irish, Polish, Italian, Mexican, Chinese, Pakistani, Indian, Greek, Ukrainian, Russian, Portuguese, etc. There's a large Chinatown with New Years celebrations. There's a Middle Eastern stretch down Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn. I could go on and on. Pride days, parades, and festivals for all. In NJ, if you live near Edison you have a massive Indian neighborhood. Fort Lee has a big Korean and Japanese population. There's an Asian market a block from where I live. It's a melting pot, but not everything melts completely and becomes homogenized. The original cultures persist, mutate, and influence the rest of us.

It's great.

Oh, and we're not the only place, though I think the most diverse. Go to Miami, and you can go to 8th street and not speak English all day because everyone is Cuban. Go elsewhere in the US and you'll have enclaves of Vietnamese. In Florida, we get lots of Canadians - especially in the winter.

Some people think this is diversity is bad - but I think this is one of the best things about the US, and something we do better than anyone else. IMO.

[jeff]

I was hoping to walk away with some sort of understanding of the "Ugly American" syndrome.

Much of it has to do with being the "one superpower in the world". People resent whoever has the most power. Look at how Britain was perceived exactly a century ago. Mentioning the "Ugly American" is very apt - dating as it does from the 1950s. Of course, we weren't hated quite as much when we started the Peace Corps.

My point being that much of the resentment is unrelated to our actual behavior. To a certain extent, it comes with the territory, regardless of recent policies, and gives other countries an excuse to look down their noses at us as a compensation for being weaker.

[wahrman]

Sorry. I do wish we could help.

Part of it just a sad fact of numbers. If hypothetically, 1% of any given population is ignorant then with 300 million Americans, that's a lot of fools.

Sigh! ... I thought perhaps I was finally going to understand why some Americans are ignorant about other cultures....

I was hoping to walk away with some sort of understanding of the "Ugly American" syndrome.

[Fencergrl]

Much of it has to do with being the "one superpower in the world". People resent whoever has the most power. Look at how Britain was perceived exactly a century ago. Mentioning the "Ugly American" is very apt - dating as it does from the 1950s. Of course, we weren't hated quite as much when we started the Peace Corps.

My point being that much of the resentment is unrelated to our actual behavior. To a certain extent, it comes with the territory, regardless of recent policies, and gives other countries an excuse to look down their noses at us as a compensation for being weaker.

I'm not totally buying that argument. Perhaps some discrimination occurs... but some of it is directly related to the behaviour of some Americans. Take the Americans in France story told earlier in this thread.

This is not an isolated incident. I've witnessed similar scenerios... as I know others on the board have.

[jeff]

Hm, that was +my+ anecdote, wasn't it?

The same happens all the time when clueless tourists visit. A common theme here in NY area is how rude, idiot, Eurotrash tourists come here and act like baboons.

This is what they call "selection bias" - we tend to remember and endorse the items that reinforce the beliefs we already have, proving how we were right all along. A very well known psychological principle.

So, people inclined to believe Americans are doofuses but more weight on stories that confirm their belief. That says something about the observer. Don't you think so?

[Fencergrl]

The same happens all the time when clueless tourists visit. A common theme here in NY area is how rude, idiot, Eurotrash tourists come here and act like baboons.

I've never had a an encounter with a rude European. I'm not saying others haven't, I just haven't.

So, people inclined to believe Americans are doofuses but more weight on stories that confirm their belief. That says something about the observer. Don't you think so?

I'm not buying that either. That hasn't been my experience. I had heard nothing about Americans being rude prior to working and encountering them. I grew up without a TV, we didn't get the newspaper, and I listened to the radio for music. This wasn't anything I would have heard discussed at school, home or amongst friends.

It still catches me by surprise when I see it (as I never expect it). I must admit I find it very amusing so I feel no hostility towards them or any American. When I think of the smiles I see from other Canadians and the head shakes... I think your average Canadian finds this behaviour funny.

I've been trying to define what the "it" is... Something in what you said in your previous post helped me with this.

You mentioned about the US being a "Super Power"... I know this is something that gets thrown around and I've never put much stock in it. Yeah, you guys have a military and you like to use it. You have lots of people and you like to consume product bla, bla bla... I just don't see it as something that makes your country better.

When I think back on my experiences with the “Ugly American” syndrome… one consistent thing is vivid… arrogance. Arrogance in believing that anything American is right. Arrogance in believing you (as an American) are right and anything that you disagree with is wrong. Arrogance in believing that the whole world agrees with you and if somebody doesn’t… they are wrong.

There seems to be this belief that the USA is the best place on the planet and that many people would love to live there... if only they could.

THIS is what I think many Canadians find amusing. We know that the people who make these statements, don't understand our amusement. We know they wouldn't understand that most of us feel very little desire to live in the US and honestly see it as a step down from being Canadian.

So we just nod out heads and let them rant about how wonderful their country is and wondering if there's some sort of brainwashing program in the US, as they all have the same hollow words.

Edit... Just to be clear. Not all Americans I have met have behaved this way, in fact very few.

I also want to be clear that I am discussing my personal observations here… and not making blanket statements about an entire country based on these observations.

[jeff]

I understand that these are your personal observations and you don't mean anything bad by them. I hope you understand that such observations about the superior nature of Canadian behavior is nothing more nor less than the very thing you accuse Yanks of having: a belief that they are superior. Don't you see how this applies to you as well as us? That's a form of arrogance just as much as you think we have. Well, we all do - it's universal.

Every country has a myth about how wonderful and unique they are, and make a pastime of elaborating all the reasons why. You just did - and frankly, I find it just as amusing as you say similar beliefs in the US are. So? It shows we both do the same thing.It's called chauvinism, and its universal. Go to Britain, France, etc, and you'll get similar messages about the unique superiority each country has, and those rude fools across the border. I hope you get enough perspective to appreciate this. It's arrogant - and visible everywhere you go. I read your post and see that very attitude.

A little look at history will show you that this has happened in the past for whoever was dominant - with some justification but sometimes just because it inspires resentment. And we must today be a place lots of people would like to live, because we still have people taking whatever measure they can to move here.

Oh, and maybe realize that other people can be just as rude - we do in fact get rude tourists over here - full of condescending attitudes. Perhaps you could reconsider your own posts to see a few traces of that kind of attitude.

[larkmaj]

I honestly don't know what the "average" American knows. Most of my friends and family have a pretty decent grasp of geography. I really think I'm pretty average. I don't know where they find these people who think the capital of New York is New Jersey.

When my parents first got married they moved to Nashville, when they told people where they were from (Massachusetts) a response they recieved occasionally was "Is that in Boston?"

[Shi no Tenshi]

Jeff, I'm gonna have to disagree with your assessment of Fencergrl's comments. I don't see her being arrogant or over-patriotic or any of that. I see hints of confusion, and a want to believe that people are like what she's experienced.

However, I'm going to agree with you in that other countries than the USA can come off as a tad arrogant. And ignorant. I know many African countries, especially west and central, have very bad stereotypes, and some of them put them in the toady position. I know that many citizens of those countries will try to marry and American so that they can move away from their situation.

In some of my experience with east Europeans, I've noticed quite a bit of ignorance as well, including some views that movies=american culture. Once again, however, i've noticed pandering, wether because they think they should act like that to stroke an imagined ego, or elsewise.

Honestly, I've found that Canadiens have a better grasp on how to take us than many other countries. The sort of attitude Fencergrl is describing should be laughed at, as it is deplorable and worthless to think as such. As I'm sure my posts demonstrate, I have little faith in the majority of this countries citizens.

[Fencergrl]

Jeff, I'm gonna have to disagree with your assessment of Fencergrl's comments. I don't see her being arrogant or over-patriotic or any of that. I see hints of confusion, and a want to believe that people are like what she's experienced.

Thanks!

However, I'm going to agree with you in that other countries than the USA can come off as a tad arrogant. And ignorant.

I agree.

In some of my experience with east Europeans, I've noticed quite a bit of ignorance as well.

And arrogant.

The sort of attitude Fencergrl is describing should be laughed at, as it is deplorable and worthless to think as such.

That's my sense of it.

[Fencergrl]

I hope you understand that such observations about the superior nature of Canadian behavior

Where did you get this from? I don't consider Canada/Canadians to be superior to Americans or anyone. Equal... but not better than.

Every country has a myth about how wonderful and unique they are, and make a pastime of elaborating all the reasons why.

Again, I think you're reading something in my comments that was unintended. All cultures/ countries are different and similar to each other... again it makes no one country better than another.

Go to Britain, France, etc, and you'll get similar messages about the unique superiority each country has, and those rude fools across the border.

I never disagreed that other countries have people who can behave rudely or inappropriately in other countries. Doesn't make it any less rude or inappropriate.

I hope you get enough perspective to appreciate this. It's arrogant - and visible everywhere you go. I read your post and see that very attitude.

Sorry you got that impression... I didn't intend to offend. I was trying to be careful not to. I realize a lot of Americans are on this board, and I didn't want to say something that might be taken the wrong way.

And we must today be a place lots of people would like to live, because we still have people taking whatever measure they can to move here.

I don't doubt that for a moment. Saying that not everyone wants to live in the USA isn't the same as saying nobody does.

Oh, and maybe realize that other people can be just as rude - we do in fact get rude tourists over here - full of condescending attitudes. Perhaps you could reconsider your own posts to see a few traces of that kind of attitude.

Again... we're not in disagreement that your country doesn't get rude tourists. As for my posts... Hey... they were not intended to be condescending and rude, it's unfortunate that you took them that way.

[Wingate85]

There's an advert in the local newspapers that "There are more languages spoken in New York than in the Olympics". I think this area has more cultural and ethnic diversity than any other place in the world. You can get newspapers, radio, TV for many ethnicities, and neighborhoods that are: Cuban, Puerto Rican, Irish, Polish, Italian, Mexican, Chinese, Pakistani, Indian, Greek, Ukrainian, Russian, Portuguese, etc. There's a large Chinatown with New Years celebrations. There's a Middle Eastern stretch down Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn. I could go on and on. Pride days, parades, and festivals for all. In NJ, if you live near Edison you have a massive Indian neighborhood. Fort Lee has a big Korean and Japanese population. There's an Asian market a block from where I live. It's a melting pot, but not everything melts completely and becomes homogenized. The original cultures persist, mutate, and influence the rest of us.

It's great.




Oh, and we're not the only place, though I think the most diverse. Go to Miami, and you can go to 8th street and not speak English all day because everyone is Cuban. Go elsewhere in the US and you'll have enclaves of Vietnamese. In Florida, we get lots of Canadians - especially in the winter.

Some people think this is diversity is bad - but I think this is one of the best things about the US, and something we do better than anyone else. IMO.

Well said Jeff. I still work for a living so I do not have the time respond to all these posts. Fencergrl was obviously very distressed that I brought this issue to light. She knows that anti American attitudes is a prevasive problem in Canada and her posts only serve as clear proof of it. As for me I moved to the US because it IS the best country on earth. The fact is that if it were not for America most of you out there would be goose stepping and singing Deutshland Ober Alas or maybe sitting in a Gulag in the middle of Siberia.

Oh, yes and let's not pretend that all this is just politics. Just last year one Canadian referee (BTW he is a very good one) was disinvited from the NCAA fencing championships because of his chronic biased calls against American fencers at world cups. He admitted to this---case closed.

GO USA.

[wahrman]

A statement like that is just plain flame bait. There is no country that is THE best.
What are your criteria? How many countries did you survey?

I can list several areas where the US is amounst the best and others where it
is most certainly not. Which ones are important to you? Which are important
to someone else?

Maybe you didn't read that part of the book but the Soviet Union had a wee little
bit to do with the end of WWII.

Funnily enough, I was in fact singing "Deutschland über alles" earlier today.

proof of it. As for me I moved to the US because it IS the best country on earth. The fact is that if it were not for America most of you out there would be goose stepping and singing Deutshland Ober Alas or maybe sitting in a Gulag in the middle of Siberia.

[Durando]

Perhaps that's the crux of the problem.

If most Americans don't care to learn about other countries (where they are, what their cultures are, what happens there) then they're left ordering fries & cokes in France. Those that take the time, blend in better and don't stand out as the "Ugly/Rude/ Arrogant Americans".... and we've come full circle in this discussion.

In the US, there is a "Melting Pot", in Canada we have "Cultural Diversity".

Maintaining your origins and your culture is part of what makes Canada different than the US.

Most of what I know about Japan, Ukraine, Hungary, Turkey, Greece, China, India etc...... is from people I get to know. I learn a smattering of their language, their traditions, their foods etc... I may never travel to those countries, but it doesn't matter.

Americans, as Joseph Heller observed at length, desperately want to be liked. In my experience, they tend to view indifference as antiamericanism. I mean, the problem could be entirely personal and yet the American traveler will think to himself, "They must not like me because of my nationality."

Problem is, a large, large majority of Americans don't make any serious effort to learn a foreign language. Even knowing Spanish helps you out in France because you are at least aware that a huge amount of communication is difficult in any language. You learn not to be so defensive. Once you understand this, the whole world opens up.

For so many, "not speaking English" is functionally equivalent to "not liking Americans" once you get down to brass tacks. This doesn't explain why they should feel anxious in Canada and England, however. Chances are you are just dealing with hicks who would feel defensive in the capitol city of their own state.

Would anyone like to comment or compare the level of cultural diversity in major cities in the USA? Are there places you can go and almost immerse yourself in a culture? Where the signage, the food, the language spoken on the street etc... is not English?

If you don't have cable TV, can you still get shows where English isn't spoken?

Are there huge celebrations for various ethnic and religious holidays? Greek Fests? Chinese New Year? etc..

Of course. Texas, in my lifetime, has become bilingual to the point where even the most reactionary hicks see the writing on the wall. (Thus the official language "debate".) Used to be, Anglo Texans used to remark that somewhere around San Antonio things used to get pretty Spanish. Now that's come north a good bit. There are also little enclaves in the hill country which still speak German once you get off the main roads, but I think this will be gone in twenty or thirty years.

Cherishing origins is indeed a national sport in the States. But it rarely goes beyond celebrating Christmas in a particular fashion or a handful of special dishes prepared at home.

There are, however, communities which remain "intact" and therefore somewhat irrelevant to the larger community. Chicago's ethnic neighborhoods are probably the best example I can think of. Americans who grew up in the Polish neighborhood are among the few second-generation citizens I've ever met who speak their grandparents' language. Usually first generation kids only have a vocabulary of a few hundred words. Second generation ones know how to say hello, please, thank you, and goodbye.

It is nothing like Montréal, though. I've traveled a fair amount, yet I've never heard more languages spoken in one place. Not New York, not Paris, not Chicago, not Buenos Aires. This simply has to be experienced to be believed.

[Shi no Tenshi]

Wingate, I don't see where you are coming from at all. I don't see how other posters are distressed by your comments, or how any replies from the Canadiens posting here are showing any anti-americanism at all.

Yes, the USA helped in both world wars, but the last one was 60 years ago. I respect all that was done during those, but to rest on your laurels for that long is kinda pathetic. If that's the only thing we can say at this point, I'm kind of disappointed. With all the changes in the world in the past 60 years, I hope to God our accomplishments are a hell of a lot more numerous than assisting in a war 60 years ago.

Then you point out what a single referee's view is, and try to blanket an entire country with that view. I'm sorry, but I personally wouldn't want you as a representative of our country, especially if we want it to be the utopia you seem to think it is.

I like our country quite a bit, and enjoy the benefits being in it entails. However, I see being better than others as a moral thing as well, and trying to one up everybody else, especially by holding the past over their heads, is an action of questionable moral value.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

There's an advert in the local newspapers that "There are more languages spoken in New York than in the Olympics". I think this area has more cultural and ethnic diversity than any other place in the world. You can get newspapers, radio, TV for many ethnicities, and neighborhoods that are: Cuban, Puerto Rican, Irish, Polish, Italian, Mexican, Chinese, Pakistani, Indian, Greek, Ukrainian, Russian, Portuguese, etc. There's a large Chinatown with New Years celebrations. There's a Middle Eastern stretch down Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn. I could go on and on. Pride days, parades, and festivals for all. In NJ, if you live near Edison you have a massive Indian neighborhood. Fort Lee has a big Korean and Japanese population. There's an Asian market a block from where I live.

Example list small-fonted by me.

While many languages are spoken in NY, how many are spoken by any one New Yorker? Any idea of the proportion of New Yorkers who can speak anything else than English and the language(s) of the parents well?

It's a melting pot, but not everything melts completely and becomes homogenized. The original cultures persist, mutate, and influence the rest of us.

How mush is a melting pot, and how much is a salad bowl? In which ways can you personally say that you have been influenced by cultures other than English and/or those of you ancestors? For how many people does that influence only lead to eating other types of food, and for how many does it lead to something more profound?


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Inquartata]

Wouldn’t most Americans know that Alaska is your largest state and not Texas???

I don't know...do Juneau? Kenai get back to you on that? Maybe I'll call an expert and Alaska. Because I do like to Anchorage learning and curiosity.

[jeff]

(snip) Hey... they were not intended to be condescending and rude, it's unfortunate that you took them that way.

And perhaps this illustrates how easy it is for people to be considered rude even when they don't intend to be. I read several of your comments as alluding to the (supposedly) superior education and manners of Canadians. I don't really take offense, but it illustrates what I've been talking about. Thinking about entire countries in terms of cliches should be avoided, and examples of "well, we are really better at X and Y than those people across the border" should be closely examined for that wee hint of condescention. Don't you think so?