How long between 'ready' and 'fence'

[ElviraW]

We in the Southern tip of Africa had a situation at a competition over the weekend where one fencer took sometimes longer than 30 seconds to 'get ready' after the president asked 'ready' and then 'fence'. She literaly sort of went into meditation everytime and got extremely agitated if the president said 'fence' or 'aller' if she was not ready. However, once she decided she was ready - she just stormed down on her opponent without even waiting for the 'fence' or 'aller'. The general feeling was that she was delaying the bout (a team event) on purpose as well as trying to influence her opponent. The question is - is this acceptable or what can one do to not have 'theatrical performances' during a bout. Note that there was none of this 'preparation' during the individual competition the day before. Comments will be welcomed.

[kro]

When I direct a bout. I ask the fencers if they are 'ready' and if neither of them say anything within 2 seconds I say 'fence.' In my region, and maybe in the rest of the US. The time between 'ready' and 'fence' is reserved for telling the director that you are NOT ready. The assumption is that you are ready when the director says 'ready' and I do not expect the fencer to answer positivly. Most do though.

With your situation, it sounds like the fencer is not getting en guard. I do give the fencer about 15-20 seconds to get on the line, if the milling around becomes habitual I would ask the fencer to 'please come en guard.' I would have no problem giving a card for delaying the bout.

kro

[HilandDoug]

I'm with you, Kro. Card'em for delaying the bout. Where I come from, we're sometimes under time constraints, and if you're dawdling (sp?), you're told to hurry it up. If you don't, you're carded.

Hey, Moonitic! Can you see Vesper reffing that event? He wouldn't hesitate to throw a card on the second offense. He'd give one warning, and then start throwing cards. As it is, he gives you about a nanosecond to respond to "ready" before "fence!"

[Cyrano11]

Hi Elvira

Seems like you had some fun at the old Team Nationals lol!

Seems to me your problem is indicative of the general poor quality of presiding in the good old R of SA.

IHO many presidents in SA do not know enough of the rules to be competent presidents, also because of the 'chummy' feel of many competitions* too many people are afraid to apply the rules as they should be, or else the opposite extreme occurs, where every little minutiae of the rules are applied, to the detriment of the fencing and the fencers. I have been watching the Olympics lately and can only tell you what I saw there, as well as my own opinions.

The president calls 'en guarde', literally 'Get to your mark and be ready to fence'. S/he then waits a second or two and asks if the fencers are ready if they do not respondly immediately s/he assumes they are ready and the bout commences/recommences.

At the Olympics if the fencer did not come on guard promptly they were spoken to very sternly and even carded in at least one instance. Some time may be allowed to compose oneself after a hit, but as soon as one fencer is finnished doing this, so should the other one be ready. Only legitimate problems (eg a weapon fault, a faulty connection or laces that need tying etc) should be fixed after the president has called fencers en garde. Once both fencers were in the en garde position, the president would then ask if they were ready and, typically, begin the bout within a second or two.

Not being ready to fence when called upon to be on guard is a cardable offence and should be applied. Obviously presidents should use their discretion but stalling and psyching tactics should not be allowed.

To answer your question direclty, the time between "En Garde" and "Et vous pret" is at the president's discretion (s/he should only ask once both fencers are on guard and look ready to fence), should be kept to a minnimum and is not the time for fencers to get ready, they should be ready when called upon to be on guard. Furthermore, the time between "Et vous pret" and "Allez" is even shorter and is certainly NOT the time for fencers to check that they are indeed ready.

It is the president's job to ensure that the bout is run fairly and in accordance with the rules. It is not up to the individual fencers to ask the president to apply the rules or to insist on them being applied. If a president sees a transgression s/he MUST act upon it. Anything less results in allegations of favouritism and makes it harder for other presidents to enforce the rules.

Hope this helps
Bye
PS Who won?
* I believe that a competition is a competition, no matter how small or seemingly incosequential, if you are not going there to do your best and compete as hard as you can you should rather not compete, and if people are competing hard, then they have to have the rules applied properly else it is not fair. (I am not saying everyone has to have fie kit etc but the core rules do need to be applied if people are no to take advantage of the situation.)

[John]

Elvira,
It sounds like your situation was a little extreme. If she didn't even wait for the command to 'fence' then she should have been halted and warned to wait for the command to 'fence'

On a side note though, I don't see any problem with stepping away from the line to "adjust your jacket, remove the sweat from your brow, etc." just before the command to fence is given just to break your opponents "focus". They allow this in most other sports, baseball, football, basketball, why not fencing? You would be surprised how many people can be "messed-up" by this little tactic and not even realize it is being done. If I remember correctly the average human mind can only "focus" on 1 thing for 8 seconds, after that it begins to wander. So the longer you can make them think about what they need to do...the better. We claim this is a sport of the mind, so it stands to reason that trying to get into your opponents head should be "part of the game" IMHO. Keep in mind, I am not suggesting this be done between every point, just once or twice at that "key moment" when you have your opponent "against the ropes" during de's.

[ElviraW]

Thanks for the contributions so far. I've discussed it with some fencers in SA as well and the general feeling is also - give a card. We did look in the rulebook and couldn't find any definite reference to this - that's why I've asked the 'world out there'. It is good to know that so far we in SA feel the same as fencers from other parts of the globe.
Don't delay the bout without very good reason!
Keep on contributing

[Wafath]

I agree that she should be "Verbally encouraged" to speed things up first offence, and carded second offence. She should also be carded if she consistantly starts fencing before the director says "fence".

On the other hand I think fencers should be allowed a brief, occasional mental break (15 seconds) that is made during the pretense of adjust ones equipment, or whiping ones brow. This is especially true in DE sabre, where the break is almost never reached.

But they should be infrequent, short, and taken with dignity.

[fred]

I watched footage of the 1999 World Championship finals in Men's Team Foil between china and France. It appeared that almost any amount of petulance and strolling to the end of the strip after a touch and fooling with equipment was ok, esp. from the French. At one point, one of the French fencers, irate about a call, took off his mask and plopped down cross-legged in the middle of the strip and staged a sit-in for a good minute and a half! The director just patiently waited for the snit to dissipate, I was expecting a red card.

[swordsen]

Actually the "READY" command is not a question it is a command. Get Ready. Like in track when they say "Get Set"

Teh actuall sequence in Fencing should be "On Guard" "Ready" Fence"
Not requests, but commands.

[Moonitic]

Vesper gives you slightly longer to collect your thoughts than Zelkowski does.

30 seconds can be a bit much. If they're at the en garde line with their mask on & sword in hand, they'd better DARN well be ready to go at it.

[rusty epee]

I'm with you guys. Give a card. This stalling bit shows me a definite lack of sportsmanlike conduct on behalf of the offending fencer -- and it should be recognized officially as such.

(Of course, there was a time when such stalls were not nearly so transparent. It's incredibly easy to stall over a fault in equipment. But that sucks, too.)

The best defense for me was simply to remain en garde -- I kept replaying the bout in my mind and used the extra time to my advantage. Thanks to my coach, though, who was a graduate of the school of "sit in en garde for 5 minutes straight" in practice. Those who used stalls like the above usually lost to me -- they were too busy figuring out how to manufacture the next stall and not paying enough attention to the game >





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The absence of alternatives clears the mind marvellously.
-- Henry Kissinger

[rusty epee]

Oh, and by the way, while I'm thinking of it...I watched a girl who pulled the same "storm down the strip" tactic at Nationals twenty years ago (well, ok, she was seeded in my pool). She beat me, but washed out a couple of pools later.

Not, of course, that I minded...

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The absence of alternatives clears the mind marvellously.
-- Henry Kissinger

[Cutter]

USFA rules discuss delay of bout as a cardable offense if I recall my rule book correctly and this behaviour will obviously fall into that category. If you come across it again, mention it to the referee. If you don't say anything than the referee may just assume you don't mind and won't do anything about it.

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Cutter
Reach out and "touch" someone.

[ladybug]

Replying to the comment that "ready" is a statement not a question, I've always thought it was the opposite. If the fencer does not reply with a negative then it's their problem if they are not prepared when the "fence" comes. I've found (on a club level at least) that if a fencer has a habit of "jumping the gun" before the "fence" command wait an extra few seconds before saying it - (and of course snigger as they anticipate and fall off balance)

[edew]

Interesting to consider the "READY" as a command as opposed to a question. I wonder how those who fence internationally feel when they're ASKED, "Est vous prete?" Doesn't sound like a command to be ready.

The amount of time it takes me to call "fence" is the amount of time after I press the start button on my timer and I see the time ticking down: about .5 - 1 second.

[swordsen]

All I know is what I was told at the directors clinic. (and yes, It was done by a member of the FOC)
He did comment that although it is a command most directors treat it as a question.
But in truth it is a command.

[Bugaboo]

Politely firm reminders: yes.
Carding: yes.

But I also have to agree with John. If you know the opponent is trying to manipulate the event with such nonsense, and she's gaining some success (and probably feeling smug about it), then pull your own "attack in prep" or pre-fencing feint (depending on your perception) and ask for time to re-tie your shoe, fix your mask, etc. immediately before action.

Not often. Just once or maybe twice. It should really mess up her personal tempo even before she begins fencing.

[rusty epee]

Hmmmm. Some of these tactics in response to some buttwhap's delays remind me a lot of a strategy employed by those of impeccable manners, namely "Shaming Them."

Although I would sincerely doubt she has ever picked up a weapon of any kind in her life, I would take a read of Miss Manners on this one....

:snicker:

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The absence of alternatives clears the mind marvellously.
-- Henry Kissinger

[edew]

I think the "on guard" is a command. The "ready" is a question. "Fence" is a command as well.

[ElviraW]

Thank you all so much for your contributions. I've asked my coach last night as well (he went watching the Olympics - as in the real thing) - and told me straight what all of you people have - not acceptable. It is also good to hear from fencers from all over, and agreeing that bad sportmanship is not acceptable.
You all have a great weekend!