Scoring Machine Repeater Lights

[jjefferies]

I'm in need of sets of repeater lights for my scoring machines, Favero and Eigentek. I've looked at prices and at USD $289. each (cheapest price I found) , it looks like I'll need to make some, 10 in all.

1. Has anyone here already done this and could share howtos?
2. Does anyone have the specs on how much power and how much voltage the two scoring machine types put out for repeaters. I'm assuming it is just a signal that will have to be boosted even for LED's.

thanks

[Wink0192]

I have designed and built several types of rep lights. Tell me more about what you are looking for.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by Wink0192

I have designed and built several types of rep lights. Tell me more about what you are looking for.

If there were a design for a simple setup. I'm assuming the use of hi intensity LEDs. I'll have a source of 12V and possibly 5V available to the repeater so power sources are not a particular concern.

thanks

[DennisCANC]

Our club is in the process of setting up a more permanent club facility and we are also looking at extension lights for Eigertek. From what I have heard is that you have to protect the box from a current back flow from the extension lights. Would be interested in any circuit designs.

[fencerbill]

Chuck Allen from Florida did the remotes that Jim Campoli was selling a while back. We bought his control circuit board and built two boxes about one foot by 6 feet. We used them for the finals when New England had the Sabre World cups. They use output from ST to control 115 volt bulbs. Could probably be adapted to use any machine.

You could buy cheap 4 light bathroom fixtures and use colored bulbs.

[DennisCANC]

Contact information for Chuck Allen and Jim Campoli.

[Wink0192]

Designing and building a modern day fencing repetition lights (lights for short) can be quite easy. I built some lights for old Paul machines that were 110 volt units and could zap you in a second. Most modern machines have logic level voltage outputs and can drive simple circuits for extension lights. I will go through the design and construction with you. Many of the items discussed have pictures and files attached to this posting.

Some assumptions:
You do not want to kill anyone with this design.
It should be inexpensive.
It should be easy to build.
No expensive “Custom made” components are to be used.
You are not planning to make a lot of money selling lights.

Let’s assume you are going to use the Eigertek “Eclipse” scoring box. I checked the schematic on-line and determined that when the LED’s on the box go on, the output line for the lights goes low, or to ground. That is typical for digital outputs and makes things easy. I asked the Eigertek people to send me the pin out diagram for hooking up lights. If there is +5 volts available at the socket, we are set.

The only electronic component we need is a solid state relay (SSR). This is the electronic equivalent of a mechanical relay, which acts like an electronically controlled on-off switch. The device is essentially self powered and needs no other connections. It also provides an optically coupled connection to the output, so that the 12 or 120 volts powering the lamps will not get back into the scoring box, or zap a fencer. The Crydom_D2W203F is a good choice for the job. It is only about $10 and very available. There are 4 leads on the SSR, 2 inputs and 2 outputs. The input will accept 3-32 volts (DC) and the output will accept 12-240 volts (AC).

Speaking of AC, 12 volts AC is the most convenient power to use for the lamps. It is cheaper to get than DC, it powers the Solid State Relays, and there are a large selection of bulbs and holders already available. I highly recommend getting a ready made 12 volt AC adaptor. These are available from a number of suppliers on the web. Get the kind that is made like a laptop computer power supply. Search for: AC Adapter for LCD Monitors. These have the 110 volt plug and the output already wiring already done. They are safe (UL approved already) and do not require you to wire up switches and fuses. We will need the 4-5 amp supply for the rep lights.

Now let’s look for the lights. Since we are using 12 volts AC and a SSR, we need to use an incandescent lamp. I know that LED’s are the trend, but you need to build some kind of housing for them and use a lot of LED’s to make it bright and have a 360 degree view. There are hundreds of holders designed for automotive and truck use, already available in red, green, and clear. I used to use truck side marker lights that are available from any NAPA store, and so were the replacement bulbs. Latter I switched to industrial signal towers. They were very expensive, but are now available for about $20.

How about mounting the lights? This is where it can get expensive. Cutting, drilling, and painting a support can take hours. Just one aluminum weld joint costs a bundle. If we use the signal towers, someone else (usually in China) does all the work. The towers are designed with a round pipe extending from the bottom. It connects to a flange or wall mount. The wires also go though the pipe. We can attach the pipe to the scoring box table with a pipe clamp. A little searching will produce a clamp for ½ inch pipe. You can even get an adaptor for the signal tower to use ½ inch metal conduit. Conduit adaptors can be used as mounts or making extensions so you can put a 4 foot rep light in a 2 foot box.

Get the picture yet? The scoring box output connects to the input of the SSR. Output of the SSR connects to the lamp and the 12 volts AC. The lamps are in a signal tower that mounts to the table with a pipe clamp. Each signal tower has 2 colors; red and clear or green and clear. That means we use 2 signal towers, 4 lamps and 4 SSRs.

Questions...?

[Wink0192]

Here is the best link to tower lights. Contact them for getting red/clear towers.

http://www.wolfautomation.com/Catego...CategoryID=829

[Bran]

We have Favero repeaters for $249.95 retail, including cables and mounting screws.

We have at least 10 in stock and would give you a good price for the lot if you were to take them.

PM if you are interested.

Bran

[jjefferies]

To the several offers to sell ready made units, it looks like I'm going to have to defer due to current expenses.

Originally Posted by Wink0192

Let’s assume you are going to use the Eigertek “Eclipse” scoring box. I checked the schematic on-line and determined that when the LED’s on the box go on, the output line for the lights goes low, or to ground. That is typical for digital outputs and makes things easy. I asked the Eigertek people to send me the pin out diagram for hooking up lights. If there is +5 volts available at the socket, we are set.

My first question is how to go from a 0v signal to a postive 3v+ signal to feed into the SSR. I am looking at Favero first. Does anyone have a pin out for the Favero connector? It is a 6 conductor connector and line. Sources can be had for the connector. But I'm looking through my old electronics manuals for a simple circuit to go from the 0V signal to the 3+V needed as a feed to the SSR.

Originally Posted by Wink0192

The only electronic component we need is a solid state relay (SSR). This is the electronic equivalent of a mechanical relay, which acts like an electronically controlled on-off switch. The device is essentially self powered and needs no other connections. It also provides an optically coupled connection to the output, so that the 12 or 120 volts powering the lamps will not get back into the scoring box, or zap a fencer. The Crydom_D2W203F is a good choice for the job. It is only about $10 and very available. There are 4 leads on the SSR, 2 inputs and 2 outputs. The input will accept 3-32 volts (DC) and the output will accept 12-240 volts (AC).
Questions...?

This was actually the easiest part. I picked up a bunch for $.25/ea at the local electronics flea market. One of the few advantages to living next to silicon valley. As for lights I found a vendor who had a bunch of still in the box hi intensity LED replacement bulbs. They claim to be intended for 110V usage but the seller said they will only last if you use 75V. Seems some little girl in china screwed up on calculating the necessary resistive inputs. Anyway at $1.00 apiece I thought they might fit the bill even though they are all white. Some cellophane and they now are acceptable colors. Edison base though.

If the club had the money I'd definitely go with picking up the ones from David Burns which look really nicer than my 1st attempt.

J.

[dekko]

The lights we have fix the problems above and others not mentioned by the folks who haven't traveled this path yet to know other problems. Our lights have been in use for about 4 years now and work great.

When your club is ready to move to this by all means let me know. Just to be clear, the price I gave you is for both ends and the control box for both, not a single end price as other systems seem to be.

Good luck.

[jjefferies]

I've still looking into the Favero Scoring Machine issues. Is it possible that the Favero uses digital signals to control the repeater lights? I've been using a FLUKE digital multi-meter to check voltages out on the Favero's (we have three Faveros and only one Eigertek) and both I and a colleague cannot locate an analog signal 0V or !0V signal corresponding to the lights on the Favero.
thanks

[DennisCANC]

In talking to an eletrical technician last night and receiving a good note from eigertek, by the time this month is over, I will have a control box for the eigertek machine that will power extension lights. I am looking at both LED and 12V, automotive lights.
As far using a digital meter for this, I was told that they are not as reliable in this situation as an analog (dial). An osciliscope is even better. I haven't played with one of those since college (late 70's).
Eigertek output is +5V.

[Wink0192]

Here is the pinout of the rep light socket.

I can hel[p you with your design.

[Wink0192]

The Favero maching might have a digital output. That will mean a circuit needs to be designed to decode the pulse train output. Or, it is time to hack the Favero (open the scoring box and trace the wires). Or, contact Favero and ask for the specks on the rep light output. Connecting a direct coupled ocilliscope to the output is better than the voltmeter. You can then see if there are pulses or a DC voltage. Why not try the Eigertek first, since you already have the pinout?

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by Wink0192

Here is the pinout of the rep light socket.

I can hel[p you with your design.

Thanks Dieter,
Best laid plans of mice and fencers. Favero is probably more trouble than it's worth unless you care to tap a signal directly off their lights. I'll do one for the Eigertek and then see what other trouble I can get into.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Wink0192

The Favero maching might have a digital output. That will mean a circuit needs to be designed to decode the pulse train output. Or, it is time to hack the Favero (open the scoring box and trace the wires). Or, contact Favero and ask for the specks on the rep light output. Connecting a direct coupled ocilliscope to the output is better than the voltmeter. You can then see if there are pulses or a DC voltage. Why not try the Eigertek first, since you already have the pinout?

Another way to describe it is that ST and Eigertek (I believe) have parallel outputs (one wire for each light) and Favero has a serial output. Favero uses 4 lead telephone type cables to connect machines and remotes. So you have to figure out how to translate serial output to parallel drivers for each light.

My electronics training was pre transistor (anyone remember Van Noogle etc?). I believe the Solid State Relays are controlled by current, rather than voltage. Which is why they are rated for 3-32 volts.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Another way to describe it is that ST and Eigertek (I believe) have parallel outputs (one wire for each light) and Favero has a serial output. Favero uses 4 lead telephone type cables to connect machines and remotes. So you have to figure out how to translate serial output to parallel drivers for each light.

My electronics training was pre transistor (anyone remember Van Noogle etc?). I believe the Solid State Relays are controlled by current, rather than voltage. Which is why they are rated for 3-32 volts.

I've wondered if this doesn't mean that the Favero processor chip probably has a couple of serial ports on it and that's why they went that route. Certainly complicates the design of other parts and for what gain? It means that on a repeater you have to have a serial to parallel converter and dependent upon how cute they got with the serial communications it may require additional logic to decode and convert to parallel outputs. Really sounds like overkill in the design. Another reason to go with Eigertek.
J.

[Wink0192]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

I've wondered if this doesn't mean that the Favero processor chip probably has a couple of serial ports on it and that's why they went that route. Certainly complicates the design of other parts and for what gain? It means that on a repeater you have to have a serial to parallel converter and dependent upon how cute they got with the serial communications it may require additional logic to decode and convert to parallel outputs. Really sounds like overkill in the design. Another reason to go with Eigertek.
J.

With a serial port, you can plug different types of equipment into the same socket and they all will work. Just like the USB (Universal Serial Buss) ports on your computer. The scoring box communicates with the devices on the serial buss and sends them the proper signal. So you could have a clock and rep lights pluged into the same port.

There is an IC called a PIC that can decode the serial pulses and drive the repeater lamps. And there were some articles, in a magazine called "Nuts & Volts," on how to decode the serial output of a remote control device. (Now read my signature text)

I also have a way to use an external sensor to see what lights are lit on the scoring box. It worked in testing but has not been fully developed...yet. It is not too complex but requires some custom work.

[Wink0192]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

This was actually the easiest part. I picked up a bunch for $.25/ea at the local electronics flea market. One of the few advantages to living next to silicon valley. As for lights I found a vendor who had a bunch of still in the box hi intensity LED replacement bulbs. They claim to be intended for 110V usage but the seller said they will only last if you use 75V. Seems some little girl in china screwed up on calculating the necessary resistive inputs. Anyway at $1.00 apiece I thought they might fit the bill even though they are all white. Some cellophane and they now are acceptable colors. Edison base though.


J.

Where are you going to get the 75 volts AC to run the lamps?

If you really want to use LED's, replace the SSR with a power MOS FET (transistor), and use 12 or 5 volts DC. Available at Radio Shack.

Here is a real tip: LED's will work with AC! Just be sure to limit the current to the LED per it's specs.

Remember:
You do not want to kill anyone with this design.
It should be inexpensive.
It should be easy to build.
No expensive “Custom made” components are to be used.
You are not planning to make a lot of money selling lights.