Countering esquives

[erooMynohtnA]

How do you teach students to deal with a slippery opponent in foil? A baggy lame, a chest protector, or just plain squirmy; what are techniques that are effective against this stuff and how do you integrate them into lessons?

An opponent wearing a baggy lame: I never have problems with this, but apparently this can be a big problem for some fencers. I don't even understand the problem, so I can't begin to deal with it. What to do?

An opponent wearing a chest protector: The two options I know are to hit where the chest plate isn't, or to lightly put the point on them instead of trying to thrust into their body. The first is easy enough if you have the point control (if you don't, work on point control), but are there good drills for a light touch? Are there other methods?

An opponent who likes to twist and turn: There are several subsets that I've noticed, the begginer who writhes uncontrollably, the child or smaller fencer who sort of bends over and clams up with their weapon arm covering target and remises until a light goes off, and the experienced fencer who uses evasion as a big part of his game. I'm more concerned with the first two, because an experienced fencer can find other ways to win. I can't think of anything to train to beat an unpredictable novice or a child who tries to make their target as small as possible. All I can think of is to fence a conservative game of open distance and look for ripostes. Is there anything I can include in a lesson to deal with evasion?

I would greatly appreciate answers to any of those situations. However, I'm particularly interested in the small or child fencer who tries to minimize target by hunching over, because I coach a small girl. I don't want her to do it, because I don't think it makes her any better as a fencer and sets her up with bad habits later on. But, she needs to be able to deal with it on the other end. What can I put in a lesson to help her deal with this? I'd try telling her what to do, but that seems to have much less effect than physically drilling a technique or strategy in a lesson.

[Bryn Ralph]

Perhaps Laszlo Szabo's Fencing and the Master will provide some interesting points of view regarding the teaching of children. By way of one example in the text: the student is sitting in a chair opposite the instructor who is also seated (p.18). Szabo's methodology is Hungarian, obviously -- and effective, provided the child has the attention span necessary to develop basic skills.

[jBirch]

Well, the basic rule is to teach them to hit the target.

Sounds simple, I know, but it's the answer you're looking for.

Part of the problem with squirmy fencers is that they require significantly better tip control to hit. Most beginners rely on timing, not technique and so hitting a hard target is one of the most difficult things they have to master. The disadvantage on the opponent's side is that they are generally not as able to hit as they would be if they were fencing properly. So you should also teach your students to keep their cool and not get freaked out by a jack-in-the-box fencer. Keep the tip on the target and hit it, regardless of where it goes.

I've never seen a baggy lame be anything but a disadvantage for the wearer. More target. More folds to catch the tip. Dunno what the issue is here.

Chest plates. Ah yes. Chest plates. There is no real trick that I've heard of to deal with this problem except to hit correctly and to make sure that the hand is not stiff through impact. Distance and technique are the answers here, I'm afraid.

Drills for all of these would be the standard tip control drills. The key is to stress pressing the tip, not jabbing it or "crashing" it. You might want to make it more interesting by having the target move around, but it's just the basics.

Hope this helps.

James.

[qatet]

A huge part of it is making sure that they keep fencing _through_ the action. They need to be balanced at the end of the hit so that they can respond to anything that happens after their light doesn't go off. In lessons, don't always end the exchange with their hit. Make a new attack immediately after they have hit so that they are ready to keep going when they're actually fencing.

[darius]

What can I put in a lesson to help her deal with this? I'd try telling her what to do, but that seems to have much less effect than physically drilling a technique or strategy in a lesson.

I'm in full agreement with both qatet and jBirch's responses, but two more thoughts:

This is a good place to figure out tactics! Squirmy fencers are often from one of two schools: attack/remise and counterattack/remise. The attackers, it's often better to steal the tempo from them; they can usually be hit by well-timed attacks in preparation. The counterattackers are tricky, because being proactive is often just what they want. They need to be slowly and carefully boxed at their end of the strip. If you must attack one of these creatures, accept as many off-targets as it takes to get a touch -- they're a net win, compared to a total miss which results in one light for the opponent.

Also, can you mimic the problem? My students have to hit me when I'm hunched over, hidden behind a maybe-covering-target bib, turning sideways, and the only viable target is the top of the shoulder. Occasionally they'll even get jacket-and-chestplate lessons. On the circuit, there are plenty of fencers who have ... unique actions which happen to be effective at the level they're fencing at. If you can show them what they'll see on-strip, they'll be more prepared to deal with it.

darius

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

How do you teach students to deal with a slippery opponent in foil? A baggy lame, a chest protector, or just plain squirmy; what are techniques that are effective against this stuff and how do you integrate them into lessons?

Wow. Lots of stuff here. I'll just mention a few things and try to keep it relatively short.

As a fencer, this kind of opponent isn't as fun for me to fence. There are fencers whose game looks ugly and squirmy and awkward, yet they're scoring touches. So, the first technique is to get in the right mental place. I need to stay relaxed and not get frustrated. Not even if I did everything "right": I had right of way, I "hit" target, they counter attacked, one light them. Foil fencers seem more prone to suffering from an offended sense of justice in such cases.

Fencers who squirm are normally not moving their feet much while they squirm. That means that once they start squirming, I control the distance. That's an important point to recognize. When fencers miss a few times in a row, they tend to cheat closer to their target without realizing it. But doing that just makes the opponent's counter attacks and remises easier.

If the opponent doesn't know how to keep distance and use it to defend (relying on dodging instead), I can often start a bit closer, but I need to be sure not to over commit and end up too close.

In terms of a single touch, to get to valid target, I generally have two options. I can get in and back out quickly. That way, I don't give the squirmer multiple remises since he's generally better at a remise game than I am. Or, I need to think about counter time: make a good initial attack that is likely to hit and be ready to retake blade immediately and hit something with my riposte.

Hitting something is another key. Some fencers will work so hard to get to valid target that they'll make their job much harder. Against this opponent, I want to get right of way and hit something. If valid target becomes difficult to hit, there's often acres of off target waiting for my tip. Rather than struggling for valid target, I'll take a nice relaxed action. I'm going for target, but if it disappears behind shoulder and bib, I'll take an off target on the shoulder or bib instead of trying to struggle to find the lame.

Now, all of this is for fencers who aren't that good and squirm a lot. If the problem is a chest plate, then the two most important factors are hitting with the right distance and hitting with good technique (soft hand, place the tip, etc.).

And there's always the flick to the shoulder, especially in counter time. Those who are good at that shot suddenly have many more options to get to valid target.

Then there's the fencer who is truly good, but he has some nice esquives mixed in with his game. I'll ignore this fencer for now since he's normally killing your student, or your student can handle the bout, and the esquives aren't normally as big of a factor.

As far as the coaching side, it depends what your student has trouble with.

Frustration? Work that.

Debounce and no light? Work soft hand and good distance.

Going past as they duck or do an inquartata? Work on setting up the touch and picking more opportune times to finish an attack. Often, those counter attacks are working because your fencers has big footwork or is being sucked into the action from out of distance.

Trouble hitting a target that's squirming? Do some lessons specifically on squirming. Take any of your normal lessons and just focus on one action. Then, you get to squirm and duck as they try to hit. They'll soon see that they can either hit you before you move (good preparation), or they will find that they can keep the tip on some part of your body (on or off target) as you move.

Trouble dealing with remises or squirming counters? Work on not stopping with the hit. Set up lessons so that you are hit, and you counter or remise anyway. Your student needs to find the blade and hit something on the riposte (on target, but off target might be okay too).

Good luck!

[Allen Evans]

1. Slow down. This lets you take the time to put your point on the target.

2. Keep your opponent in the distance box. As tbryan mentions -- and I completely agree with -- closing the distance usually results in a race to score with a remise. Not a good position to be in.

3. Encourage the opponent to attack (either through invitation, or some other method). Drawing their weapon arm out away from their body makes it easy for your riposte to find a "hole".

4. Look for your own second-intention remise action. Many of the "squirmy" fencers beat or parry the blade and then use a split second to step/turn/duck/other equally hard to describe action. This usually results in a significant pause before their point comes out. I've been working with a few of my fencers on a shallow attack, followed by an immediate remise with short fleche (this is a pretty advanced move).

AE

[AaronK]

Attack the flank (under the weapon arm)- it's a good choice of targets to hit when somone likes to evade.

Also: I had coached a student of mine (younger kid who often has to deal with squirmy opponents) that it was okay to finish an attack that would likely land off-target because the squirmy opponent was hiding behind their arm. My rationale had a few points to it:
1. Hitting off-target with ROW was better than getting hit by a squirmy counter-attack when missing a real target.
2. My student would get less frustrated because they could focus on a goal other than scoring (they "successfully" attacked with ROW and hit, rather than "I didn't get a point")
3. The kids who were being squirmy were used to protecting the target by being squirmy rather than making a parry or using distance because they were getting positive results by doing it (and it is highly effective in the Y10 arena). If they are sick of getting hit in the arm, they will eventually have a reason to keep distance or parry.
I don't think this is as useful as the kids get older because as the attaking kids get better at hitting the flank/back the squirmy kids start developing a more sophistocated defense (or they start loosing touches).