What would you do - epee

[jspierre]

Here's the scenario: you're down a few touches, with, say, ~2 minutes left on clock in the 3rd period of a 15 touch bout that could put up into the 8. You've driven your opponent (epee) back to the 2 meter line, pushing. But, no matter what tactic you try, your opponent is defensively flawless - a seasoned epee fencer with strong parries. He stays very disciplined behind his guard, and gives you nothing - no tempo, no errors, nothing careless.

What do you do?

I've missed making the 8 in several competitions just at this point. At a point in the 3rd period of my DE in the round of 16, I'm down a few touches, and my opponent goes turtle. Too often, I just try and turn up the pressure, and try to drawn him out, push-pull on footwork, or try and set up second intention attacks, but land-up going a bit crazy, and digging myself into a deeper hole. My mindset seems to be, better to take chances, and pour it on then back off the fight, and let the clock beat me, down several touches. So, the result is usually bad for indicators, but fighting it out feels like the right thing to do.

Suggestions - antedotes?

[noahz]

If the fencer is "defensively flawless" then there really isn't much hope...

However, if they are purely defensive and unresponsive to your preparation, then the best answer is to close distance until they are forced to attack (in which case you do the appropriate counter-action, i.e. parry or counter-attack) or you are close enough that a single-tempo direct attack will yield a one light touch.

If you're down, you're going to take a risk somehow.

[noodle]

if you're able to drive your opponent back that far, then keep doing that and wait/bait, forcing them to make the mistake on an attack. if they're "devensively flawless" then you shouldn't be forcing anything into that, you should try and pull them off the defense.

[seven6ty]

It really depends on the opponent greatly. I usually tend to do best when I adapt my strategies to the particular opponent I'm fencing, and not as much so when I try to stick to one kind of a general strategy for these types of situations. At this point, it's really important to analyze the actions which have gotten you to that point in the match. What tactics/actions have resulting in you getting the touch? Those that were the most successful are almost exclusively the ones you should be relying on at this point. Looking at those actions which have cost you points... Try to completely exclude those from your game. If you haven't gotten a successful toe shot all bout, don't make any serious commitment to those. If you've gotten 5 successful parry 6 reposts, concentrate on setting those up. Even on opponents with seemingly "perfect" technique, you can still set them up using timing and tempo to hit them where they are exposed.

[swordsen]

Stop driving him back into the corner. I know that sounds foolish but many fencers (seem to) do better when they get back there. So make you attacks earlier when they aren't expecting it. Even better, try to avoid being down points in the final 30 seconds.......

[nahouw]

But, no matter what tactic you try, your opponent is defensively flawless - a seasoned epee fencer with strong parries. He stays very disciplined behind his guard, and gives you nothing - no tempo, no errors, nothing careless.

What do you do?

Work on making your attack better and be offensively flawless -- perfectly timed and executed in absolutely correct distance so that your opponent has not the chance to parry-riposte you nor the opportunity to counter-attack somehting that you might be exposing nor capitalizing on your misjudgement of distance. He's obviously seeing a flaw in you that enables him to close out the bout, so find the flaw and fix it....

[tkexi991]

Here's the scenario: you're down a few touches, with, say, ~2 minutes left on clock in the 3rd period of a 15 touch bout that could put up into the 8. You've driven your opponent (epee) back to the 2 meter line, pushing. But, no matter what tactic you try, your opponent is defensively flawless - a seasoned epee fencer with strong parries. He stays very disciplined behind his guard, and gives you nothing - no tempo, no errors, nothing careless.

Pushing someone who has the lead is definitely a bad idea. All he has to do is stop you from making a touch and eat up clock. If he has a lead of three or more, keeping it up or doubling it out for the win is easy to do in the third period.

Your best bet is to keep him moving and get him to attack (if he is truly defensively flawless). A lot of fencers don't have the patience to wait out the clock AND actively fence (to avoid a passivity call) - if they see an opening or an opportunity, they are going to go for it. Work on parry riposte, prises de fer, attacks in preparation - quick attacks to the hand. But with the attacks to the hand, avoid coupes - you can't afford to get hit under the hand.

As for an anecdote - I fenced to qualify for Div III last year and was down significantly in the second period. The score was something like 8-14. I had to completely change my game (which was not working) and I focused on attacks to the hand, prise de fer, and strong parries for the fleches that started coming. Since my opponent was so close to victory, it wasn't hard to draw an attack for counterattacks as well. I managed to win 15-14.

Of course, managing the score from the beginning will make these holes a lot shallower.

[samh]

I think in addition to what the above people have said, you also have to manage your time well. Being down 2-3 touches with 2 minutes left does not mean that it is a good time to rush. You have to prepare slowly and thouroghly to insure that you will make one light touches. At this point you are not trying to rack up points to win the bout. You are trying to either be tied or ahead when time expires.

[jspierre]

These are all excellent responses. Thanks to everyone so far. I think they all are valid, in their way.

I need to really find a way to improve my blade work, and hand tempo. I think that become so much more important in a close technical fight, rather than relying on tempo hits, or broadly set up actions.

I think working early on to realize that the opponent is a technically strong fencer, and avoiding a 2-3 touch deficient is key; not to find one self down too early in the game. Better to fence a low scoring bout, and then try and level the score when he's under as much pressure or more (if down) to me. I think touch order is also important to understand if we're trading touches.

Some really good suggestions here.

I think I need to so some set-up practice bouts where I figure this out in practice too, and not wait to miss the medal round in competitions.

Tks!

NB - don't some guys have a 'close out' action, a "go to touch" that they keep in reserve for just such situations?

[Durando]

Flawless doesn't really exist at most levels of épée. If your opponent is flawless you lose. However, never stop looking for the error. It has taken me years to understand the value of continuous reconnaisance. Sometimes an extra fifteen seconds of looking will reveal something you haven't seen before. Most of the time when I lose in the situation you describe, it is because I find the tactical solution too late.

TI think I need to so some set-up practice bouts where I figure this out in practice too, and not wait to miss the medal round in competitions.

Do this with a teammate. Alpha begins with one foot off the strip. Zulu has a minute to make the touch. Zulu should concentrate on constructing the action and not forcing it, on using as much time as it takes. Alpha looks for a parry riposte or a flèche, understanding that he cannot retreat. Really, an attack becomes much simpler once your opponent can't retreat. You just need to be in this situation many times to recognize the fact.

NB - don't some guys have a 'close out' action, a "go to touch" that they keep in reserve for just such situations?

I don't. Everything depends on the adversary. It's true that there are certain touches I like to make. Learning to fence épée well in competition means favoring what is appropriate over what is fun.

[RITFencing]

A lot of good stuff in this thread; I particularly like Durando's response.

I would suggest working on some themed bouting in your club. In addition to fencer A standing with 1 foot off the strip and fencer B having one minutes, another scenario I like (this is useful for other things as well) is to fence a 15 touch bout, give A ten touches and B five touches, and run a three minute clock.

It simulates going into the final period of a DE down a significant amount, and forces one fencer to adopt and offensive strategy.

This can also be useful for the fencer that is up, especially when placed against an opponent stronger than them, teaching them to look for doubles, hold a lead, etc. When the fence who is up loses that bout, it can also teach them that they can't always just sit on said lead.

[KD5MDK]

I'd switch back to sabre.

[Lord Gorlock]

I'd switch to sabre, only to burn it and switch to foil.

[veeco]

A lot of good stuff in this thread; I particularly like Durando's response.

I would suggest working on some themed bouting in your club. In addition to fencer A standing with 1 foot off the strip and fencer B having one minutes, another scenario I like (this is useful for other things as well) is to fence a 15 touch bout, give A ten touches and B five touches, and run a three minute clock.

Good idea, but in epee, I'd probably make the touch difference more like 3 touches, one touch a minute is a better way to get people to build up an advantageous position.

In addition to this this drill, I've had coaches who run a similar, but more "bootcamp-ish" drill, which is especially good when you have 4 or more fencers in the class:

Try to build as big of a lead against your opponent in 3 minutes (continuous clock, just run it for three minutes, don't stop the clock when a touch was made). Then, fencers with the biggest lead face each other, second biggest face each other, etc. The losers face each other, symetrically to the winners. Lather, rinse, repeat until your fencers are drenched in sweat and cannot move anymore.

[Coach Vic]

For what it is worth (since I watch a lot more bouts these days than I actually fence) I would make the following observations:
1) A "go to" technique is like an ace hole card...nice to have but should never be overplayed. You lose its effect if it is recognized because you have gone to the well a few times too often. Once recognized it can be turned back against you into a decided liability...misdirection and surprise is what keeps such a ploy effective.
2) At the end of a 15 touch bout, the sense of distance, timing and tells is probably well-mapped by a canny opponent. With respect for seven6ty's input, I would counter that what had been working probably stopped about four or five touches ago for your score to be where it is...continuation of what your opponent has learned to handle during the bout may be a reinforcement of failure. I would suggest showing them what they have come to expect and radically change your intent/timing/distance or whatever you can to shatter their comfort zone and make them second guess their flawless defense...
And yes, I well realize it is a lot easier to suggest this from the sidelines than to actually pull it off on the strip.
Good luck in your game.

[introspective]

JS.....HI! I haven't seen or fenced you in a very long time. If I am correct you might be the person with whom I took a few classes from in NO and then you relocated to LA? But you're a strong fencer, there must be a way. Let's think. Run through the scene again:

In an asian sort of way - like very fung sui....
1. do you get dehydrated?
2. do you get winded?
3. do you get cramping in the hand or legs?
4. at that point are you getting like irritations from your fencing gear which distracts you? ex: eyeglasses rolling around the place, socks falling down,


so......in other words, try to reconstruct again by going over these last two times and write down some of your recollections and then you may be able to unravel where the problem lies.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

It sounds to me like you didn't do so hot for the prior touches. Maybe you need to focus on figuring your opponent out BEFORE he's got a lead and you're under the time knife.

Be more patient during the first period. Use your brain some more.

[jspierre]

JS.....HI! I haven't seen or fenced you in a very long time. If I am correct you might be the person with whom I took a few classes from in NO and then you relocated to LA? But you're a strong fencer, there must be a way. Let's think. Run through the scene again:

In an asian sort of way - like very fung sui....
1. do you get dehydrated?
2. do you get winded?
3. do you get cramping in the hand or legs?
4. at that point are you getting like irritations from your fencing gear which distracts you? ex: eyeglasses rolling around the place, socks falling down,


so......in other words, try to reconstruct again by going over these last two times and write down some of your recollections and then you may be able to unravel where the problem lies.

Well, I'm not in LA, but that's beside the point.

I recall in these situations, I'm trying a lot of preparatory footwork, side to side, and syncopated up and back, and my opponent is just keeping a very healthy distance, knowing that if I close, he'll either launch a counter into may prep, and settle with a double, or at worst, I score the single, but time is wasted, and he's still ahead by a touch or usually two.

I remember frustration, as my actions where disregarded. His game is simple - just stay behind his guard, keep a long distance, and counter if he feels pressure.

Funny in that I hv much more success tieing the score in a 5 touch pool bout, even if down by two touches with little time left. But the sense of pressure is felt by both me and my opponent, whereas in the 3rd period of a DE, my opponent works the clock, and distance with more composure, knowing that he's probably already seen my most confident actions, and that I'll have to really pull something out of the hat to get the single light.

I think luring the couter-attack, then taking the riposte, or looking for a second intention, with the chance to counter-riposte might be a good tactic. Clearly, unless I have superior speed at the end of a DE or he commits a flagrant error in his defense, chances are a single action, straight attack has, at best, the chance of a double, and at worst, a single light against.

Because he has to keep his weapon up, actions on the blade seem to make the most sense too; if he drops, he's vulnerable, so he's better off keeping his weapon, up, and keeping a loose shoulder to pull back if I make attacks to his forward target. Essentially, a riskier attack to the leg or foot is suicide, so he knows that the action will be confined to the upper torso, mostly, arm or maybe lower torso, flank. Flank actions are good with the blade as there's no really good parry, it seems to me.

You know, my scenario is, in fact, quite common. Even if you watch the high end of the intl events, you'll see good guys get down by 1 to 3 touches, and have to force the action against a strong defense. It's like a 3 touch bout, under extreme pressure, and most times, you just can't pull it off. The idea of not falling behind earlier is key. By the time you're fencing to make the medal round, you're facing a guy that's got a more complete game, and has experience, and resources to cope with a smarter opponent. That probably argues for more patience in attack, and avoidance of any glamour touches - just the basics with focus, and judicious approach to each period, and the exchange of touches.

I thought the Wicas gold medal bout in Turkey this year was a very interesting contrast in styles - one, his opponent's, a very obvious international style, high tempo, bouncing footwork, flick feints, and Wicas, with the deceptive off tempo attack from distance, and deep retreat, and resumption of the same with no obvious pattern. I think his Norwegian opponent was bamboozeld, and got tricked into thinking that Wicas was a fluke, and had severe technique issues - that is, until Wicas nailed his opponent's desperation fleche, with a behind the neck shot to close out the contest!

Not to overuse the chess analogy, but like chess, we should probably all learn to practice end games first, and openings last.

[introspective]

"knowing that if I close, he'll either launch a counter into may prep,"


So that means he can watch when you close your attack. I would change my tempo slightly in the closing phase.

[parrythis]

Since you didn't ask what's the best thing to do, but rather what I would do...

If I was not down many touches and felt that I had time to play, as soon as I sensed that my opponent was trying to draw me down into a trap, I would relax my pressure and try to draw him back onto the main part of the piste. Then I would renew my pressure, trying to keep him guessing about my intentions and possibly confusing him about where he is. That's if I feel I have time.

If I felt I was in a time crunch I would get a bit more aggressive. When a defensively skilled opponent draws you down into that position, they are setting you up to over-commit. I would launch a good false attack - one that looks real, but I have no intention of completing - and draw their defense and deal with it. I would keep doing this, trying to stay ahead of them, until an opening appears then I would take it. If your opponent is defensively sound, your play needs to be 3, 4, or more levels deep. You cannot expect to score on a simple attack or one that is only one level deep.