What would you do - epee

[tchwojko]

(Epee) If you have a truly patient fencer, with solid defense, little time on the clock (<30 seconds) and let's say 2 or 3 touches to tie, then if you haven't figured anything else in the bout, do something that you think would end up a coin flip as to who gets the touch. Some choices:

• Get some infighting going
• Constantly flick at the hand
• Throw high risk/reward feints
• Throw your fastest attack and guess which way your opponent will parry, circling around it (they either parry-riposte, or you get a clean touch, but it'll be one light).
• Go for alternate targets (leg, toe, mask)

If your opponent is truly being entirely reactive, then you have an advantage to work with. That advantage will be dependent on your skills and your opponents' skills.

[alan swan]

Are you sure you pushed him to the end of the strip? If he is so good defensively, maybe he let himself be put there in order to draw out your attack. A lot of times people get there opponent on the end line and get to anxious, making poor attacks trying to force them off the end of the strip.
With 2 minutes to go you have plenty of time to get two touches. Move him, move him, move him! Force a distance/footwork mistake. Tire him out. Try to draw his attack (maybe go to your end line and draw out his attack). You really aren't forced to to make desparation attacks until there are about 20 or 30 seconds left.

[introspective]

JS: everyone's saying to 'drive him back into the corner" but, you're already doing that, what you're saying next is that when you launch into your next attack, he anticipates it and counters it, my best feeling about this is since epee is very much tempo dependent, change your tempo right there, right before you go into your touch. Do an epee feint. Epee is like music, if he's doing one thing, try a counter, and listen to Reggie music there's a lot of counter in it, you can pick up a rhythm and use it and no one will know it. [not a counter attack, a counter rhythm]

[gladius]

I found this thread interesting and so I posed the original question to Maestro Giancarlo Toràn, President of AIMS (Italian Fencing Maestri Association) and a scholar in fencing in general and epee in particular, asking what advice, if any, he had.

Maestro Toràn was kind enough to share this with me which I'm glad to post.


If one of my students had presented the same problem using exactly the same words, I'd tackle the problem mainly from the psychological angle rather than as a fencing problem. Let me explain.

The way the problem is presented is completely general ("... But, no matter what tactic you try, your opponent is defensively flawless - a seasoned epee fencer with strong parries. He stays very disciplined behind his guard, and gives you nothing - no tempo, no errors, nothing careless."), which prevents me to give a precise answer.

What is evident however, is the negative mental attitude. When you face a problem, the failures in trying to solve the problem must be interpreted as feedback, not as failures. In other words if an attempt doesn't work, it should not lead us to the conclusion that we are incapable, or that the problem is without a solution. Rather, it should make us understand that the path to go on must be another one, different from what we just tried to do. With this positive attitude in your mind then one can see if there are other paths (techniques or tactics) available, within one's own repertoire of fencing knowledge, or whether it's necessary to learn and practice something new. To set up a counteraction one must know and describe correctly and in detail the action or the tactic against which one wants to find an effective countermeasure.

It's therefore useless at this stage to discuss on the effectiveness of countertime or other actions in a situation like this one. First, one must be convinced that there is a solution (it always exists); then one must analyze the problem to determine possible solutions. The description by the person starting the thread is anything but an analysis; it is the expression of a psychological condition ("forma mentis") of one who is losing or has lost the bout.

Conclusion: think positive! I believe this expression is typical American. It does not mean only "put on rose tinted glasses" to your thinking process, but also to point them towards what one can do, or better, towards what one did not succeed doing.



Personal Comment

I, like the originator of the thread and others, I believe, would have liked a recipe, or a list of recipes of moves, but I realize now the importance of working in real time with a Maestro who can teach how to analyze a particular situation and can then tell me whether I have in me what it takes to overcome a certain situation. I believe this competent analysis to be one of the pivotal roles of anyone who aspires to be a fencing coach.

[RITFencing]

As always, Gladius, you're a credit to the forum. I had not really considered such a psychological approach, but I guess that why I'm not head of the AIMS.

[RITFencing]

(Epee) If you have a truly patient fencer, with solid defense, little time on the clock (<30 seconds) and let's say 2 or 3 touches to tie, then if you haven't figured anything else in the bout, do something that you think would end up a coin flip as to who gets the touch.

30 seconds is a damn long time, even in epee. I don't start to get reckless when I'm 2 or three touches down until about ten seconds left on the clock.

[jspierre]

I found this thread interesting and so I posed the original question to Maestro Giancarlo Toràn, President of AIMS (Italian Fencing Maestri Association) and a scholar in fencing in general and epee in particular, asking what advice, if any, he had.

Maestro Toràn was kind enough to share this with me which I'm glad to post.


If one of my students had presented the same problem using exactly the same words, I'd tackle the problem mainly from the psychological angle rather than as a fencing problem. Let me explain.

The way the problem is presented is completely general ("... But, no matter what tactic you try, your opponent is defensively flawless - a seasoned epee fencer with strong parries. He stays very disciplined behind his guard, and gives you nothing - no tempo, no errors, nothing careless."), which prevents me to give a precise answer.

What is evident however, is the negative mental attitude. When you face a problem, the failures in trying to solve the problem must be interpreted as feedback, not as failures. In other words if an attempt doesn't work, it should not lead us to the conclusion that we are incapable, or that the problem is without a solution. Rather, it should make us understand that the path to go on must be another one, different from what we just tried to do. With this positive attitude in your mind then one can see if there are other paths (techniques or tactics) available, within one's own repertoire of fencing knowledge, or whether it's necessary to learn and practice something new. To set up a counteraction one must know and describe correctly and in detail the action or the tactic against which one wants to find an effective countermeasure.

It's therefore useless at this stage to discuss on the effectiveness of countertime or other actions in a situation like this one. First, one must be convinced that there is a solution (it always exists); then one must analyze the problem to determine possible solutions. The description by the person starting the thread is anything but an analysis; it is the expression of a psychological condition ("forma mentis") of one who is losing or has lost the bout.

Conclusion: think positive! I believe this expression is typical American. It does not mean only "put on rose tinted glasses" to your thinking process, but also to point them towards what one can do, or better, towards what one did not succeed doing.



Personal Comment

I, like the originator of the thread and others, I believe, would have liked a recipe, or a list of recipes of moves, but I realize now the importance of working in real time with a Maestro who can teach how to analyze a particular situation and can then tell me whether I have in me what it takes to overcome a certain situation. I believe this competent analysis to be one of the pivotal roles of anyone who aspires to be a fencing coach.

Wow! I am honored. Never thought my situation would be posed to an Italian fencing master for comment/insight. Really grateful. (This is a very good site for the sport!).

I take the Maestro's point (no pun); the thread was started on a psychological footing, presented with a set of real life facts as I've experienced them on the strip. The situation I describe is a real plateau for me, a glass ceiling of sorts, which I find very hard to get through.

When in this situation, I feel frustrated but also have positive fight, and feel very challenged to find the solution, but with time pressing, I tend to unleash energy without direciton, really. The situation is in fact hard to crack, and, in fact, the dilemna stems from the development of the bout in the earlier periods, when I should identify my opponent for his best qualities, and fence him differently earlier on.

Does the Maestro have any thoughts about conventional drills we could use in practice, along the lines of the ones in earlier replies, that could help train for the circumstances outlined?

[ysbadadden]

Everyone must have noticed that there's a point, with time running out, when even in epee (with the risk of double touch), desperate attacks are more likely to succeed. Before that point, they are more or less suicidal. My guess as to the reason: a combination of 1) the attacker's desperation adds power to the attack -- it's absolutely whoile-hearted, nothing held back, and 2) the defender's certainty that the opponent will attack locks him into a defensive mode (he's running for the end of the strip; he's not counterattacking as early, whatever).

That said, if you're three touches behind an opponent with a "perfect defense," you're going to lose. Fortunately, nobody has a perfect defense. As you suggest, some people don't give you attacking opportunities that suit your style or your mind-set. They've adapted their defense to fit you. So you have to be ready to change your style and/or your mindset.

First, lose the idea that his defense is perfect. Every action in fencing has an answer (and the answer has an answer).

[black card]

i find that a well-placed racial slur can really turn the tide

[tchwojko]

30 seconds is a damn long time, even in epee. I don't start to get reckless when I'm 2 or three touches down until about ten seconds left on the clock.

If I'm going to do something risky (like go for a 50-50 chance of success), and down a few touches, I'd like some time to deal with it if I'm on the bad side of the coin flip.

This is all going on the premise of the original post, though.

I usually feel I can do something better than a 50-50 chance, unless I'm fairly well outclassed. In that case, I'm probably down a whole lot with lots of time to spare. In those cases, I try to make my opponent hit me in as many different ways as possible, while I learn as much as I can for the next time around.

I always believe every touch, every bout, every tournament has two possible outcomes: win or learn.

[black card]

you do have to be more aggressive in these situations, but controlled aggression is the key. when i say controlled, i mean break it down to the basics. attack the hand, wrist and forearm with tight form, but keep after them. a big mistake a lot of fencers make is that when they are trying to make up points late, they start fencing like foilists and going for the big targets.

pester the weapon hand very aggressively, and you will create openings. think small but push hard.