Video as a Training Tool?

[parrythis]

I have difficulty seeing, in the first person, mistakes that I am making. It is easy enough to see such things when others are making them, but unless someone takes the time to tell me that I am screwing up, I often continue on in blissful ignorance, making the same mistake over and over. I crave feedback and constructive criticism from those that can see what I cannot.

For my entire life, in every sporting endevor I have ever tried, I have wanted to be able to videotape myself and view the video so I could discover my mistakes and correct them. Only recently has the digital revolution caused prices of camcorders to drop to where such a luxury is possible.

My questions are: Does anyone here use video as a training tool? Do you find it effective? Do you have any tips on how best to capture the action so it is useful? Are there any camcorder features that you would consider to be essential to achieving useful results?

[Allen Evans]

Read the Blog by RIT. There shouldn't be a question mark after the title of your post.

AE

[RITFencing]

What he said. I'm lucky enough to train in a club with a TV mounted on the wall and a video camera hooked up to it.

The two views I like are from the side (with my body facing towards the camera) and from the front.

Remember that slow motion is your best friend.

EDIT: Oh, and do a number of repetitions of each action before you stop recording and review. Finally, make sure you review each set several times. I like to do it first in slow motion, focusing on a different part of my body each time, and at least once at normal speed so I can get a realistic idea of my speed and tempo. I also often rewind and watch individual reps over and over if I notice something unusual.

[parrythis]

Read the Blog by RIT. There shouldn't be a question mark after the title of your post.

AE

The blog by RIT is what inspired me to ask the question. I am looking for more opinions. It is something I have considered, as I said, my whole life, but I need to justify spending discretionary funds.

I tried to revise the title to be more syntactically correct, but the change does not appear to take effect.

[sabreur]

I video my competitions when I can (i.e., when I've got someone around who can handle the camera while I fence).

Only thing I use my video camera for--I bought a fairly high-end Canon Digital 8.

Worth every penny.

[Allen Evans]

I would definately spring the ability to pull the video off of the recorder via firewire or USB...or simply buy one of the recorders that uses a digital medium to record to. I didn't do that when I bought mine, and I've started to regret it.

Buy a tripod, if you don't own one already.

AE

[darius]

I have a low-end Canon ZR-200; it uses mini-DV tape and records in widescreen. I use firewire to export the video to Adobe Premiere (there are probably cheaper options, thank goodness for academic licenses) and from there can encode it into whatever format or burn to a DVD, at which point it's film-breakdown time in the living room.

This works for competitions, lessons, self-correcting form, whatever I feel like doing with it.

The only issues with the ZR are battery life (about 60 mins per $50 battery, and they don't recharge that quickly) and that its wide-angle isn't very wide (correctable with a lens). I'd LOVE a prosumer-level HD cam, but my current coaching income can't justify those toys.

You're in my area -- if we can ever get an RFC Open when I'm not travelling, or you wanted to come to a UR practice, I can show you how it works.

darius

[keith]

Have you considered a mirror?

While video is great for body/movement awareness it doesn't beat a mirror and observation by a decent coach, or even better a high level competitive fencer.

[AdamH]

Video can be extraordinarily useful.

It may be worthwhile to use it in proportion to what you are trying to acheive. By that, I mean;

If you are a beginner, it's not going to be the be all and end-all. Your coach is going to be your primary source of feedback. You are looking at gaining experience and analysis is going to be simple. Correcting an en-guarde, looking at your lunge, your basic parries. It doesn't go much further than this. Experience and practice is your focus here.

Once you've been at it a while (say, 6 months or so) you will probably have certain ideas in your head. You may consider yourself to have a very good quarte-riposte. You may be wondering just how long your lunge is. You may be wondering why certain people always deceive your excellent quarte-riposte. Just how big a disengage am I using? Here, video will be useful to answer these questions, then you can go ahead and practice. You will probably realise that what your coach has been telling you for the last 6 months is right and now is the time to work on these things!

Competing fencers will have their own reasons. Checking that their invitos and preparations are what they imagine them to be, that they are not telegraphing their favoured actions, general timing and tempo of blade and footwork. As well as everything else any other fencer would look to check.

Having a video of bouts from Opens and other tournaments is also a good way of analysing which actions are actually useful. Does that septime-beat-fleche flick to back shoulder actually score often enough to make it worthwhile? What did opponent x who came back from being 8-3 down after the first period really change to beat me?

Lots of uses and I would recommend it.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

This is a GREAT question! I use a videocamera with tripod and remote control. With regard to battery issues, I just have to say that my SONY, which they told me would eat up batteries at least once a year, is still going strong with the two originals I bought six and a half years ago (I bought one of the early digital video cameras) and I still get two to three hours per battery.

My next camera, coming this fall, is a Sony High Definition video camera. High Def is here at the consumer level, baby! If you are seriously thinking about breaking down film, GO with the Sony, and GO with Hi Definition (I assume you have at least one hi-def tv, right?). Fencing is a sport of nuances in movement...you want to catch it all! You can now get a Sony Hi Def for under $1k. Be sure to buy a good extended warranty though...there are lots of things for which I would never buy a warranty, but I would for one of these.

[Fencergrl]

A couple comments....

A video camera is a great way to get past the self-denial that's in all of us... You can tell someone over and over (or hear something over and over) that you pull their arm back etc... but until you see it for yourself, it's hard to "own it" and then correct it.... sure it doesn't replace good coaching, good opponents to bout against etc... but I think it's a great training tool.

Secondly, I would like to hear more advice on purchasing a video camera, as I too am considering purchasing one... Making me wonder if Parrythis and I are really the same people in a different alternate universe

[erooMynohtnA]

I also find video taping myself to be really useful. I found out that I have a big problem with overlunging and rolling my foot that I never knew I had. It's amazing to watch yourself fence. It's like looking in the mirror for the first time and saying "I look like that?"

I just have a Sony Cybershot from about four years ago and a 1 gig card. I use its video mode. The video isn't pretty, but it lets me know what I'm doing.

I really can't see why you would buy an HD camera for watching yourself fence unless it's vanity or an excuse to have one. Even in grainy clips on the internet, you can still see what happened. Granted, you may lose the blade in an action, but you can watch the hand and infer what's happening enough for training purposes.

[Fencergrl]

I really can't see why you would buy an HD camera for watching yourself fence unless it's vanity or an excuse to have one.

Shhhh... men like to convince themselves they need the latest and greatest the technology has to offer, so they can justify spending the big bucks.... now step aside darrrling... you're in my close-up

[parrythis]

Have you considered a mirror?

I don't think I can watch a mirror AND my opponent at the same time.

You're in my area -- if we can ever get an RFC Open when I'm not travelling, or you wanted to come to a UR practice, I can show you how it works.

Thanks for the camera advice and the invitation. I will PM you on when U of R holds their practices. Rochester is not too bad of a drive from Buffalo once in a while. BTW, I'll be at the RFC Open on Saturday.

Having a video of bouts from Opens and other tournaments is also a good way of analysing which actions are actually useful. ... What did opponent x who came back from being 8-3 down after the first period really change to beat me?

That is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for. Anyone can correct me on minor "form" errors and I always appreciate their feedback. Video can help with that too, but what I am really looking for is to capture a tactical situation and be able t break it down and analyze: What did I do? Was it believable? How did my opponent react? What are they doing that I am falling for time after time? Do I react to a particlar invitation predictably or do I mix up my responses? Etc., Etc., Etc.

It is all I can do to see, capture, and analyze the actions of a single touche, much less an entire 15-touche bout. Video would help me to fill in the gaps and and correct the misperceptions in my (brain) memory.

BTW, I'm not sold on HD. I don't own an HD TV (definitely a luxury when compared financially to other necessities - besides, I think watching TV is mostly a waste of grey matter) and I'm not sure I need to see the lint on my opponents socks to analyze the action - at least not just yet.

[parrythis]

Shhhh... men like to convince themselves they need the latest and greatest the technology has to offer, so they can justify spending the big bucks.... now step aside darrrling... you're in my close-up

Sorry, I don't fit that mold. Having worked in I/T for well over 30 years, I am no technophobe, but at the same time the techologies I buy are tools not toys. They have to do a job that I need done and I don't buy features that I will never use. There has to be a reasonable ROI (Return On Investment) for me to buy a technology.

Now move over here... the light is better and the shot will be so dramatic...

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

BTW, I'm not sold on HD. I don't own an HD TV (definitely a luxury when compared financially to other necessities - besides, I think watching TV is mostly a waste of grey matter) and I'm not sure I need to see the lint on my opponents socks to analyze the action - at least not just yet.

I watch very little TV myself (I bet that would be a common trait among fencers), but when I DO watch something, I LOVE the sharp image. And the thought that when I videotape my daughter's dance recitals, I will be able to do that in HI DEF? How can a proud dad resist?

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Sorry, I don't fit that mold. Having worked in I/T for well over 30 years, I am no technophobe, but at the same time the techologies I buy are tools not toys. They have to do a job that I need done and I don't buy features that I will never use. There has to be a reasonable ROI (Return On Investment) for me to buy a technology.

Now move over here... the light is better and the shot will be so dramatic...

Yeah...you'll change your tune when your favorite adult films are released in Blu-ray!

[keith]

I don't think I can watch a mirror AND my opponent at the same time.

... have you noticed that a common theme of video analysis fans is that it allows them to see their technical flaws? Why wait for the video analysis to come back to make the effort to work on solid technique with a mirror.

As to videos of bouts - the only person who knows why they keep hitting you in prep (as an example) is your opponent - just ask them, otherwise you can spend hours trying to fix things that are not in fact the gimme they are taking advantage of.

On other aspect of videoing bouts to emphasise is not looking at what you do but how you are responding to your opponents actions. That can give real clues as to how opponents are breaking you down.

[darius]

... have you noticed that a common theme of video analysis fans is that it allows them to see their technical flaws? Why wait for the video analysis to come back to make the effort to work on solid technique with a mirror.

A mirror only works from the frontal angle. If I have to turn my head to look at the mirror from a different angle, I've already compromised my technique. Obviously, the instant feedback that a mirror gives is great.

Why is video analysis such a bad thing, in your opinion? In sports where technical execution is key and there is no opponent interrupting the action, it's a no-brainer: swimming, track and field, skiing, and plenty of other sports have been using movement analysis forever.

Fencing is different; the environment changes with the opponent. However, if there is a biomechanically efficient way to make specific movements, conforming to that increases the ability to make a hit.

As to videos of bouts - the only person who knows why they keep hitting you in prep (as an example) is your opponent - just ask them, otherwise you can spend hours trying to fix things that are not in fact the gimme they are taking advantage of.

This is the obvious use of video, and I don't think anybody disputes its benefit for use in tactical situations.

But there's something to be said for using video to correct technical flaws. It's one more tool - if you have the means, use it.

darius

[RITFencing]

Have you considered a mirror?

While video is great for body/movement awareness it doesn't beat a mirror and observation by a decent coach, or even better a high level competitive fencer.

I disagree. Mirrors (as was hinted at by parrythis) distract from what you are doing and cannot be rewound and played back at various speeds for reviews from different people. Also, to get different angles with mirrors a fencer needs to keep their head turned in different ways, which is bad practice.