Convince me

[Shi no Tenshi]

Perfection is not what gets my ass up to work hard. I now know that there is no such thing as perfection in fencing.

A concrete goal is more appropriate (e.g. to win the national championship), and does make me "strive to be all I can be."

Most sports psychologists recommend setting a goal. I would submit "perfection" is not a good goal because you'll never get there.

Rick

This works for some people. However, unfortunately, to others that kind of thought process is useless and annoying. For some abstract thinkers, such as myself and seemingly sneakattack, the goal of perfection is known to be unattainable, yet striving for it gives us our motivation. We don't feel disheartened by the fact that we can never attain it, but we have an idea in our head of where to go, similar to your concrete goals. The difference is, our motivation comes from our striving for the unattainable, while yours has to be justified by the fact that it is attainable.

Nothing wrong with either type of thinking; just use what works for you. I personally can't stand having concrete goals, they just annoy me.

[piste off]

This works for some people. However, unfortunately, to others that kind of thought process is useless and annoying. For some abstract thinkers, such as myself and seemingly sneakattack, the goal of perfection is known to be unattainable, yet striving for it gives us our motivation. We don't feel disheartened by the fact that we can never attain it, but we have an idea in our head of where to go, similar to your concrete goals. The difference is, our motivation comes from our striving for the unattainable, while yours has to be justified by the fact that it is attainable.

Nothing wrong with either type of thinking; just use what works for you. I personally can't stand having concrete goals, they just annoy me.

I am assuming that we are talking about fencing as a sport, where the object is to win. To be clear, my definition of success might be different than yours. My comments don't reflect any other value you may achieve or seek from it...

When I first started fencing, my attitudes were tempered by Eastern philosophy because I studied it in depth up to that point. I understand your POV all to well, as I also was there (perfection seeking).

But like it or not, concrete goals are the more effective way to get ahead. This is proven, and is fundamental to a large number of mental management systems out there.

You see, seeking perfection gives you an out. That out is deadly, and can become a crutch for explaining away lack of performance. After all, you are still on the path, right?

I made the same mistake you are earlier in my fencing career and don't plan on making it again on my second run. You get annoyed by goals, but I guarantee you won't reach your potential without them. Trust me, you are not special or wired different - you just are fooling yourself.

Rick

[Shi no Tenshi]

heh, I do respect what you are saying, Piste. However, according to at least 3 different psychologists, I AM wired differently. And yes, it is the majority of people that work better with goal setting, hence why it is the common way of doing it. You only have the "out", as you say, if you take it.

I actually don't know anything about Eastern Philosophy.

And my goal in fencing is to win cleanly. I hate getting sloppy points. I'll take them, as you can't exactly give up a point in a competition, but I still despise it.

All I'm saying is, don't discount other methodologies just because they didn't work for you or your friends, even the majority. I work with people with mental disorders, I have to ignore such generalizations.

One final thing I forgot: I am the just about the hardest working fencer in our club as far as bettering myself goes, searching for whatever techniques or drills or whatever to improve. Nobody in my club taught me to think like this. They have much the same attitude as you.

[lemon__fresh]

well this got interesting

[Inquartata]

Thanks for the history lesson. Now I can point out the fallacy of choosing sabre or epee over foil more accurately. Ahh, foil! The purest form of SPORT fencing!

I never said that total perfection was possible, but the idea of it is what causes people like me to strive to be all they can be. If you tell someone that they'll never be perfect, while that may be the truth, it defeats the purpose because they are unlikely to try as hard.

A few seconds of thought should suffice to tell anyone that perfection is unattainable, so---you're recommending self-delusion as a motivational strategy?!

Because after all, you realize what perfection means in fencing, right? It means that you get every single touch. Not just the ones you are awarded, but every single one you attempt. And no opponent ever gets a single one on you. And you get every touch with absolutely flawless form. Your opponents, even if they are world-class, can never surprise or startle you or do something to make you react. In fact, you probably have to get every touch with a simple action in first intention, because having to do second intention or having to parry or retreat implies that you have done something less than perfectly to necessitate defense on your part.

Does anyone actually think this goal is even remotely approachable?

Ah well, if perfection isn't what causes you to get up off your ass and work hard, then maybe you should think about finding something that does.

Oh, I work. I just do in bouting, rather than in activities which IMO have little real utility.

I mean, if I am beating people who DO drill and drill and drill and take lesson after lesson and do footwork routines and so on---either I'm just naturally vastly better than they are, or else perhaps the best training for fencing is fencing, rather than practicing isolated subcomponents of fencing. Which do you think is more likely?

[piste off]

heh, I do respect what you are saying, Piste. However, according to at least 3 different psychologists, I AM wired differently. And yes, it is the majority of people that work better with goal setting, hence why it is the common way of doing it. You only have the "out", as you say, if you take it.

I actually don't know anything about Eastern Philosophy.

And my goal in fencing is to win cleanly. I hate getting sloppy points. I'll take them, as you can't exactly give up a point in a competition, but I still despise it.

All I'm saying is, don't discount other methodologies just because they didn't work for you or your friends, even the majority. I work with people with mental disorders, I have to ignore such generalizations.

One final thing I forgot: I am the just about the hardest working fencer in our club as far as bettering myself goes, searching for whatever techniques or drills or whatever to improve. Nobody in my club taught me to think like this. They have much the same attitude as you.

I am open to the fact that you might be different... I doubt it, but am open to the idea. Do you mind if I ask just how you are "wired different?" It might help explain how each motivational philosophy works and how your approach might be preferred for certain individuals.

Thanks,

Rick

[Shi no Tenshi]

My thought process is different from other people. I sometimes alter logic to include variables that don't necessarily exist, and think along that line. This has made it hard to understand or relate to others on several occasions, and I still only partially can do so. It's obnoxious.

Basically, the best way I can sum up our difference is this: You have a goal, it is concrete, you can manage it eventually. I have a goal, it is abstract, I can never get it, I know this (not delusional), yet it is logical to me and motivates me because of it. They are effectively goals, despite the fact that I don't really see mine as one. I have a strong detachment to physical reality, for part of it. Just not to the point of being schizotypal ^_^.