en guarde, narrow or wide

[big daddy]

What are the advantages of using either a narrow eppe style on Guard or a deep wider on guard in foil. Iv'e noticed that some fencers use both . Do you guys think one is better than the other for foil?. Which would be better for beginners to learn? Give me your thoughts.

[keith]

Originally Posted by big daddy

What are the advantages of using either a narrow eppe style on Guard or a deep wider on guard in foil. Iv'e noticed that some fencers use both . Do you guys think one is better than the other for foil?. Which would be better for beginners to learn? Give me your thoughts.

for beginners what matters is balance; make sure that the knees are bent, over the insteps etc etc. So that tends to deeper and wider enguardes but this will put more strain on knees and thighs so it isn't a case of more is better when it comes to the stance.

When you do line drills for footwork just keep reminding them to bend the knees, relax the upper body and get the feet in the right place - most will adapt a stance that gives them the right degree of balance for easy movement. The rest will take a little prodding.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by big daddy

What are the advantages of using either a narrow eppe style on Guard or a deep wider on guard in foil. Iv'e noticed that some fencers use both . Do you guys think one is better than the other for foil?. Which would be better for beginners to learn? Give me your thoughts.

I come out of a tradition where so much attention was paid to our en garde that it has taken me years to quit worrying about it. In my club, beginners are taught the basics, with an emphasis on equilibrium. It is not uncommon, for example, to see kids in their third year of fencing with wildly exposed arms. I'm down with this new system; however, I do point out when a loss of equilibrium causes a loss of speed or reach. The MdAs I work with are good at techinically explaining this but most of the time they show how your feet are supposed to move and at what rhythm.

My thought is that, for me, how a beginner guards is almost a nonissue.

[Allen Evans]

I, too, came from a tradition where on guard was pretty important. I haven't lost my belief that on guard is still pretty important, especially in the US where there is a wide spread in coaching skill and the coach's ability to diagnose and make technical corrections. Some of the students that have come to me from other coaches had on guards so bad that they could not actually stand in them without losing their balance. Even while acknowleging my own inclination to be a "technique Nazi" at times, this is too much.

I think the best lessons I learned about on guard when I started to fence was to learn what elements made up the on guard: how the relationship of feet, ankles, knees, etc effected my balance, and what needed to be done to change them when I needed to. I probably changed my on guard two or three times in my actual competitive career, always with the goal of easier movement and more relaxation. I certainly didn't use my original on guard for more than a year or two.

If someone is teaching fencers right from scratch, it would be helpful to get a copy of the warmup/on guard exercises from the USFA's Level 1 Coaching program. They look a little silly, but they seem to be able to put people into a natural on guard without doing a lot of explaining.

AE

[xlr8]

Slightly off topic (but at least related!)...

Has anyone noticed the difference in en garde between the different national (foil) teams? I'm thinking particularly of the Italians who seem to tend towards a very wide stance with the weapon arm nearly extended vs the Germans who seem to prefer a more dynamic (bouncy?) style, front foot coming back to nearly the back foot as they dance around.

Thoughts on how these stances lend themselves to the types of fencing styles these fencers demonstrate? Or are my (admittedly limited) observations off base?

[Bryn Ralph]

A. Nadi's en garde was quite effective; he basically positioned his foil in the center of his chest (as viewed by his opponent) with his right elbow tucked a wee bit to the left. Therefore, his en garde proved quite adequate. And his stance varied as needed.

[AaronK]

I hate to give a non-answer answer, but anytime somone is offering a choice in technique, I would have to say "it depends". (I realize that the origional question was about foil, but I used the other weapons as an example as well).

A narrow on guard position allows a person to take larger steps, thus cover more ground than a wide on guard. This also means that the fencer is able to cover a greater variety of distances in a single step. If it's epee, a narrow on-guard probably means the fencer is more upright, a better position to protect the foot/leg from attack. If someone is wishing to make long lunges, you will cover more ground with a narrow on guard position. Also the narrower on guard position means that the fencer will not have to shift their weight as much forward to execute a fleche (as opposed to a wide position).

A wide on guard position is going to be far more stable. A fencer can change directions easier with a wide position than a narrow one. The fencer won't be able to take large steps, so their forward speed will be slower, and require more tempos to reach the opponent- which may not always be desirable in ROW weapons (more tempos open the door to attack on preparation).
A wide position is more likely to have an even weight distribution, and feel more in ballance when moving quickly.

I suppose you'd have to consider both the situation as well as the athlete. If somone was a beginner I think I would have something of a compromise- something that allowed them to be in balance, change directions often, and still be able to take larger steps. Once that athlete started regular competition then I think I would only re-visit the idea of the guard-position to facilitate what style accomodated their particular play within what made sense for that weapon- or in the case that there was a persistant error, problem, or missing element in their footwork (that hurt their game technically or tactically).

[Don Badowski]

One subject I haven't seen covered here is lunge speed. If your feet are close together and you pick up the front foot to lunge, it is going to take a second for your center of gravity (COG) to start moving forward with any speed. With a wide stance, your COG is already way out in front of the back foot, making the lunge much faster. The downside apart from vulnerability to epee leg shots is a shorter lunge distance as measured from your front foot and torso.

Four years ago I attended a fencing clinic by Michael Marx. He recommended a normal, shoulder width on guard, with the weight shifted slightly forward, 55/45, rather than the traditional 50/50. He claimed that this added lunge speed while not significantly impeding the speed of any defensive footwork.

[Don Badowski]

Originally Posted by xlr8

Has anyone noticed the difference in en garde between the different national (foil) teams? I'm thinking particularly of the Italians who seem to tend towards a very wide stance with the weapon arm nearly extended vs the Germans who seem to prefer a more dynamic (bouncy?) style, front foot coming back to nearly the back foot as they dance around.

From the article "It's all about Tempo"

Salvatore Sanzo's fencing is not unlike this. In many of his matches, his feet rarely come within one meter of each other. He does not allow his opponent the luxury of a seeing a two-part step forward or back — he does more of a shuffle with his feet — so his legs don't move.

Salvatore is using his multiple temp footwork to get him in range of a short but very fast lunge, facilitated by the wide stance.

[xlr8]

Originally Posted by Don Badowski

From the article "It's all about Tempo"

Do you have a link to the full article?

[VorpalCat]

Originally Posted by xlr8

Do you have a link to the full article?

It's All About Tempo

[Rick Thompson]

It's not *just* about tempo or Lunge speed...

A wide stance actually reduces the length of the lunge, while a narrower stance allows the lunge to be longer. Think about it.... If you lunge and your feet end up 4 ft (1.3 meters) apart normally, then a wide stance with feet 3 ft apart (1 meter) gives you a lunge distance of only 1 ft (.3 meter).

A narrower stance where the feet are 2 ft apart gives a lunge distance of 2 ft. (Measurements quoted are arbitrary and intended only as examples - actual mileage may vary....)

I tend to favor a stance about shoulder width. This gives a good mix of balance & stability and is easy for beginners to identify and check. Beyond a certain skill level, fencers must discover their own optimum stance (which can vary tactically...)

[Don Badowski]

Originally Posted by Rick Thompson

A wide stance actually reduces the length of the lunge, while a narrower stance allows the lunge to be longer. Think about it.... If you lunge and your feet end up 4 ft (1.3 meters) apart normally, then a wide stance with feet 3 ft apart (1 meter) gives you a lunge distance of only 1 ft (.3 meter).

Look at it this way. The speed of the lunge will be an inverse of the size of the en guarde. Narrow stance, with the COG almost directly over the back foot, takes forever to get it going. Wide stance, with the COG well forward of the back foot, is very quick.

Of course, you can overcome the disadvantages of either while doing compound footwork, like an advance-lunge or balestra. The initial advance or jump can serve to get the COG out in front. But this may fly in the face of change. I'm reminded of an article that Coach Evans wrote about a series of clinics that Vladimir Nazlymov gave on saber. "The students must understand that momentum is the enemy of the fencer."

The entire article can be found here.

[big daddy]

Where can I get a copy of the Level one coaching program ? I mean without attending coaching college in 2009.

[darius]

The CC manuals don't really do that much. The value of Coaches' College is definitely in the physical sessions.

What are you looking for, information-wise? Most likely you'd learn more by reading Szabo, Czajkowski, and others, but I'm sure people could point you in the right direction if we knew what you wanted.

darius

[RITFencing]

I would check out the canadian coaching manuals if you're looking for something; they're available on www.fencing.ca.

[big daddy]

Im really just looking for an easy , natural way to help my students discover the enguard position.I can show them an enguard but Iv'e noticed they seem to learn things better when they " discover" them( meaning I tricked them in to learning it).

[Insipiens]

Originally Posted by AaronK

I hate to give a non-answer answer, but anytime somone is offering a choice in technique, I would have to say "it depends". (I realize that the origional question was about foil, but I used the other weapons as an example as well).

... SNIP ...

A wide on guard position is going to be far more stable. A fencer can change directions easier with a wide position than a narrow one. The fencer won't be able to take large steps, so their forward speed will be slower, and require more tempos to reach the opponent- which may not always be desirable in ROW weapons (more tempos open the door to attack on preparation).
A wide position is more likely to have an even weight distribution, and feel more in ballance when moving quickly.

My emphasis.
I would be inclined to say that the smaller steps (even with more) would make you less open to an attack on preparation - or at least a successful one.
Large steps give me more time/opportunity to attack while small steps give my opponent chance to stop and not get too near, or parry.

[epeeslasher]

Originally Posted by big daddy

Im really just looking for an easy , natural way to help my students discover the enguard position.I can show them an enguard but Iv'e noticed they seem to learn things better when they " discover" them( meaning I tricked them in to learning it).

Have them start with their heels at a ninety degree angle and legs straight, then have them go up from that position on to their toes a few times. Now when they come back down, tell them to take a step forward with their front foot (feet should be shoulder with apart) tell them to go up on their toes again. After a few times, when they are up on their toes, tell them to come back down while bending the knees as the heels touch the ground. This should be relatively close to a good en guarde. This is a preparatory excercise designed by lazslo szabo to help teach the en guarde without description of the motion, it is done through explanation and kinesthetic feel.