Italian Grip advice

[Jeff Harman]

Lords, Ladies, and porn enthusiasts: One of the kids in my class just got an Italian gripped foil for Christmas. He thinks he needs to hold it like a bowling ball with his fingers wrapped all around and thru the gavigliano (correct term & spelling?). I told him to hold it like a French grip as much as possible... your wisdom appreciated.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Harman (edited 01-03-2001).]

[latenight]

He needs to get rid of it asap. So whatever way he can throw it the farthest is the way he should hold it. One of the kids in our salle got one because he thought it was cool looking. It has seriously affected his development as a competitive fencer. If he's not into competing, I guess it's ok, but there is a reason nobody competes with Italian grips anymore and it's not because they are illegal ( they are not). Just my point of view, feel free to have your own...

[This message has been edited by latenight (edited 01-04-2001).]

[HilandDoug]

I thought they WERE illegal, because nothing is supposed to portrude beyond the bell guard, and the Italian has that nasty ricasso (is that what it's called?) that sticks out. And does anyone even make an Italian electric foil?

But I agree with latenight. Have him use it as a fireplace mantle decoration, at best.

[latenight]

I think the make a ricasso which does not extend past the bellguard. I don't think they make an electric though. Who would want one?

[edew]

The ricasso, according to others on RSF, is
the part of the tang from the bellguard to
the grip. The cross-bar is called, as far
as I care, the cross-bar.

They are legal, and very few of them have the
cross bar extending beyond the bellguard.

[neevel]

We've got a fencer at my club who does both CF and competitive fencing who uses Italian electrics. Santelli carries them with bayonet sockets, and The Fencing Post and Negrini list Italians with Uhlmann-style 2 prong sockets. They're all kind of pricey-- you could get a pistol or French foil with a low-end maraging blade for about the same money.

The crossbar (gavigliano) on Italian foils doesn't project beyond the guard-- that rule dates way back to the days when Italians were still commonplace, and they were designed to conform to it. A downside from the quality standpoint is that the only Italian foil blades available these days are baseline France-Lames blades. Santelli does sell a false ricasso piece (the ricasso is the wide portion of the blade between the guard and the crossbar that you grip between the thumb and forefinger) for Italian epees, which one could saw off to fit in a foil-- that would allow use of french-tang blades.

Regardless of what the kid uses, he really needs to lighten up his grip. You might do some hunting around CF websites to find photos of how to hold an Italian in the hand. The main idea is that you pinch the ricasso between the thumb and middle phalanx of the forefinger (just like a french or pistol grip), with the crossbar gently resting on the base-knuckle of the forefinger and the middle phalanx of the ring finger and thus providing _passive_ leverage, rather than being actively squeezed upon. One of the ideas behind the wrist strap that was commonly used with Italian foils was that it allowed you to adopt a lighter grip with the fingers while not having to worry about losing the weapon.

-Dave Neevel

[introspective]

I'm not sure, but I think you have to be careful when gripping an Italian, some of them gripe. My grandmother cautioned my mother about them, but she didn't listen. Are there any articles written by Agrippa about the grip I mean? He was a famous spanish swordsman, who may have written somthing insightful about the italian gripe.

[damianip]

Ignoring the Italian grip hysteria, here's how I was taught to hold it. This is also illustrated in texts by Gaugler and Barbasetti.



Don't even look at the above picture if you are currently using an ortho grip as it will ruin your footwork!!!!

Definitely be careful because it will also do the following:

It demagnetizes the stripes on ALL of your credit cards. It reprograms your ATM access code, screws up the tracking on your VCR, and
uses subspace field harmonics to scratch any CD's you attempt to play.

It will program your phone auto dial to call only your Mother-in-law's number. This grip will mix antifreeze into your fish tank. It will drink all of your beer.

For God's sake man are you listening... I said

"ALL OF YOUR BEER"?!?!"


It will leave dirty socks on the coffee table when you are expecting company.
It will replace your shampoo with Nair and your Nair with Rogaine, all the
while dating your current boy/girlfriend behind your back and billing their
hotel rendezvous to your Visa card.

It will cause you to run with scissors and throw things in a way that is only
fun until someone loses an eye. It will rewrite your computer's backup files, changing all your active verbs to passive tense and incorporating undetectable
misspellings which grossly change the interpretations of key sentences.

If the Italian grip is used on an épée, it will leave the toilet seat up and leave your hair dryer plugged in dangerously close to a
full bathtub. It will not only remove the forbidden tags from your mattresses and pillows, it will also refill your skim milk with whole milk.


It's one bad grip...

Paolo

Thanks and credit to the author of the "Bad Times" virus

[neevel]

Paolo--

You forgot the bit about how it will cause Nick Evangelista, Alan Keyes, and Ayatollah Khamenei to show up in your living room and deliver a 3-hour sermon on how your use of orthopedic grips is contributing to the moral degeneracy of modern society .

-Dave

[darius]

C'mon, who wouldn't want to fence the Ayatollah?

darius

[Jeff Harman]

Well! That was certainly enlightening... I knew I came to the right place. Where else can one gripe about a grip and get tutored on societal morals all in the same topic?
Once again, I'll tell him to hold it like a french as much as possible. And special thanks for the picture! (worth a thousand words and all that).
-JAH
p.s. it is an electric and he does hope to compete with it...

[latenight]

He'll change his mind the first time he gets the crap flicked out of him. But we all have to learn the hard way......good luck!

[damianip]

latenight writes:

He'll change his mind the first time he gets the crap flicked out of him.

OK, how does your grip cause your to get flicked off the strip? I can see him having a bit of problem infighting if he uses a strap. He'll also be harassed by uninformed directors, but flicked?

The best defence against a flick is control of distance. How's the grip going to hurt him there? His parries should be fine: stronger than if he used a French.

Look, I don't use an Italian grip any more. I use a French in èpèe and a Zivkovic in foil. Am I limited by my choice of grip? Not really: I'm certainly more encumbered by sloppy footwork, poor distance and physical fatigue.

I still think that there is a bit too much emphasis on the impact of the grip rather than the technique used to wield it. The CF crowd says the ortho will ruin you and the SF crowd is convinced that the Italian grip is illegal or sure prevention of a winning style.

With proper instruction, whatever grip you use really won't hurt you if your game is balanced. The differences won't be apparent until you reach the very highest levels of the sport.

Paolo

[latenight]

No, my point is it will be difficult for him to flick back at his opponent, which he will be tempted to do after he gets those first few wacks across his back. Italian grips suck for flicking. Now you can say he doesn't have to flick, and I'm not going to argue with you because it's all been done before. but it is part of being a well rounded fencer. Flame away freely, because I've said my piece.

[damianip]

Latenight,

Actually, while I don't find the Italian grip to be great for flicking (although my dry weapon with an old Scaroni blade is pretty amazing in that regard), it's not horrible either.

You are correct in that the impulse of a novice would be to flick back, but that's not a function of his or her grip, but rather his or her instruction.

No flames intended, I just didn't understand your flick reference. Now I do...

Paolo

[latenight]

Paolo,
I'm not angry or anything. Didn't mean to sound like I was. I think French grips are great for beginners. Italians have their place in CF. But it sounds like this kid is going to be doing SF. As far as flames, I meant the ton I'm sure to get as a proponent of the flick. I use it. Then again I use alot of things.

[swordsen]

I use and Italian Grip and I fence in competitions. I quite like it. I can do a flick to the shoulder and hip with it. I don't use the wrist strap and it is an awesome infighting weapon without it. It is very awkward to use at first but is quite doable.

Incedently, hookong a finger through each ring as many people who have no idea what to do withthe grip try is a great way to break a finger. don't do it.

[Lumberg]

That photo of how to hold the Italian grip is great. It's much easier to see it than explain it. Another note, the palm is always facing the ceiling in the en garde and in the lunge. That is why the blade is bent differently than on a french grip foil. So, you don't roll the weapon hand when extending the arm like with a French grip.

------------------
Lumberg.
"...yeah...did you get the memo about the TPS reports?"