Defensive routines/programs/sequences

[AdamH]

Something I'm playing with at the moment is constructing defensive and offensive programs. Respectively consecutive parries with particular footwork that branch off to an offensive action once a parry is successful (end of line is a stophit with opposition) and progressive preparations that may be practiced and applied over several touches. Recent posts made here, particularly in the coaching corner forum, have indicated it would be very worthwhile in seeking advice from the great and good and very good.

This is for foil. I don't have access to a good foil coach right now as the great and ever-living prof I would usually decant from is recovering from an illness.

This has come from watching some pretty tasty foilists doing their thing and noticing that they all appear to have favourite sequences of actions that they choose from and are plainly very comfortable with (of course).

The attacking preparations may normally be trained in the context of choice reaction exercises which I have a little handle on.

Right now I'm particularly interested in whether it would be worthwhile in training a lot with one or two particular defensive sequences, in the context of setting up to 'take over the attack'.

One fencer, whom I will use as an example, has a very simple but effective set of actions. There is a lot more to their game, but I will outline what I see as their core.

Whether put on the backfoot, applying counter-time or generally looking for their opponent's blade, they will search with a simple but very quick sequence of actions. Namely; from 'Hungarian' quarte, semi-circular search to seconde, then semi-circular search back to quarte. They will occasionally mix it up with some very rapid lateral sixte-quarte, sixte-seconde searches.

I appreciate this is not a fantastic deviation from the usual 4-6-8 usage but what interests me, is the immediate turning to offense from these very quick searches. They are genuine searches and not just flappy parrying, demonstrated by the incredibly quick ripostes, which are clearly trained from each position.

Mix in a fair amount of counter-attacking and some interesting sabre-esque tempo attacks (fudda-fudda-fudda with the feet), some good close-quarter (usually a prime) and the fencer has an overall game they employ to great effect.

I appreciate what you may be thinking; "That sounds like it could be a description of anyone fencing."

What I am interested in, from coaches and competing fencers, is whether this mental model of a 'generic' game for an individual fencer is a suitable model to hold in one's head. And if so, what sort of default sequences or patterns would you recommend?

I think the notion of a 'default' routine or routines is the key to what I am interested in here, with special emphasis on the 'end' of the routine (ie, if all parries are deceived, finish with a stophit) and which programs you yourself teach depending on the makeup of a particular fencer (and for fencers, how would they model their 'default' systems of defense).

[erooMynohtnA]

I've seen a few fencers of varying abilities use this technique, and I've tried it a few times myself.

In terms of the pattern, I find that circular (1/6, 6/counter-6) or diagonal (4/8) motion doesn't work as well as laterally (4/6) or vertically (6/8) opposed parries. In a continuous circular motion, the opponent simply has to circle with you or even just time his attack right, so he hits while you drag him across your body. Will Jeter from OSU is a pretty good example of someone who uses a repeated circular six very well, though.

I think the main advantage to using a system of parries is that it frees up you up to concentrate on things other than where the blade is. Since you're not chasing the blade, you don't have to worry about where it's going, you just wait for the click of blades and immediately make your riposte. I find I can also work distance a little better.

A smaller advantage is that it's harder to fake you out whether by a broken tempo attack or a good feint, since you're not really "looking" for the blade.

The main disadvantage is that it's routine. If your opponent knows where your blade is going, he knows how to avoid it. For this reason, I don't really use a routine, and I would suggest it to a beginner because it could quickly become a habit. I would suggest using something like 6/8/6/8/6/8/4 or 8/6/8/6/8/6 with a counter-six at the end to catch the opponent by surprise. I've had success with 1/2/1/2/1/2 and less so with a saber (still fencing foil though) 3/4/3/4/3/4, but never against anyone moderately good.

As an additional note, I've seen fencers use this as an offensive technique. Once instance that sticks in my mind is when Andras Horanyi beat the piss out of my teammate by coming forward with his blade up, going back and forth between 3 and 4 waiting to knock away the blade and finish with a coupe.

I just don't think the parry routine is a good way to go. I really only observe it having success when there's a large mismatch in skilll. I've used it against a U or E, but I have to get more creative with anyone better than that. Like most "moves" I don't think this move is why the person wins, it's superior timing, distance, technique, and tactics that allow the move to land and propel him to victory.

[D'Art]

I woudn't advise any sort of routine once you have got a fair grasp of the basics (I would've said "mastered the basics", but very few people ever do this). After you reach a level of general competence, then I would rather work on a few sequences (note there's a difference between a sequence and a routine) which you can draw on when you need them. The 4,8 riposte, 4, counter 4 riposte, 6,4 riposte, 6, counter 6 riposte, etc. You'll notice that there's two different parry combinations for each of the two starting parries - makes you less predictable, and as a consequence, should be harder to beat. Same goes with attacking sequences. After a while, start to vary the timing of your actions (not as easy as it sounds for most people, unfortunately). You'll find that you can then adapt to several different situations without having to use a hugely varied repetoire.

[Allen Evans]

Let me see if I understand this: these are defensive actions in the absence of any threat?

AE

[D'Art]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Let me see if I understand this: these are defensive actions in the absence of any threat?

AE

I hope not, otherwise what I've written is gonna seem even more stupid....

[AdamH]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Let me see if I understand this: these are defensive actions in the absence of any threat?

AE

No.

The fencer in question has a set of (short) defensive sequences. The quarte position is one of the centre points of his fencing. Essentially he has trained, as has been described above, these sequences to the stage where he is terribly, terribly good at them.

Each parry, if successful, immediately leads to an offensive action; so good fencing there.

I did watch him being beaten in the final of recent international open, by a fencer that had very nice timing, but let's be straight and say he's pretty good.

The question I am interested in putting out, is that in addition to the traditional consecutive parries (4-6, 4-contre4, 8-4, etc) are there particular sequences that you would look at, or even favour, for training and coaching purposes. One example given in the original post was 4-6-stophit in 2 (stop hit, not croise).

Cheers!

[darius]

My first coach taught circular-6 / lateral-4 / 7. At some point, she'd attack, and I would have to make those parries in order, riposting from the point where blade contact was made.

I actually really like this sequence as a starting point, because it's non-obvious (lateral-4 is the most common response to an direct threat, and plenty of fencers start their disengage without bothering to see if you've parried) and it reverses the direction of the tip each time, which means the opponent can't just double their disengage. It teaches the foilist not to cheat too far backwards (or they fail to score on the riposte), and not cheat too far forwards (or they get hit), and they have to be properly balanced to make the riposte at any point.

Also fun, circular-6 / lateral-4 / 2 (usually stepping in).

darius