The first time, though it had continuity from plug to cup, then bare wire to cup, when plugged into the test box with a body wire, the test box light wouldn't light up.
Tried another body cord. Tried another plug. Tried another test box. Checked continuity again. Finally realized there was a short... somewhere, as there was continuity between the bellguard and the plug.
Right-o. Rewired it again today, being extra-super-special-crispy-careful.
Well, there's not even a short this time, but it's not lighting up.
What other tests should I be doing to trouble-shoot this thing? Please chime in, O Wise Armourers.
__________________ —The situation is hopeless, but not serious.
The foil circuit is NC (normally closed). If the weapon is put together, plugged in, and the circuit is open (white light on box), then there's a break somewhere. If the weapon is plugged in and depressing the tip fails to turn on a light, then you have a short somewhere.
If you can't trigger a change in the system, then the circuit is stuck in one of those two conditions and you'll have to figure out where.
I'm not sure we understand what your symptom is: do you have a connection when you shouldn't (a short) or no connection when you should (an open)?
Either way, I'll run you through a set of tests which will isolate the problem.
You need a multimeter with an ohms tester. The meter swings all the way to the right (analog) or reads a very low number of ohms (zero) when the test leads are held together, and no meter movement (pointer to the left) or infinite ohms with no connection. So in this, when I say "connect" it means low ohms, and "no connect" means lots of ohms (infinite). l You can use a test box with individual leads use the center and either the left or the right connection. Connect is light on, no connect is light off.
Let's first check that we have a problem. Connect the leads to the two socket connections on the foil. A good foil will have a connect (a couple of ohms) between these points with the tip at rest. If you don't have a connection, we'll start at the top. If you DO have a connection, depress the tip. If you now have no connect, your foil is working. If you still have a connect, you have a short, skip down to that section below.
(Open) If you have no connect with the tip at rest, start here
Take the tip out. Measure between the two sockets connections. Put a tip screwdriver in the barrel so that the end touches the contact in the cup at the bottom of the barrel and the blade touches the barrel at the top. Look for a connect. If it connects even momentarily while you are fumbling, you probably have a good wire.
If you can't get a connection, even momentarily, remove the wire from the socket. Is the wire silver? If so, skip the next step. If it's copper colored, use sandpaper or emory cloth to make it bright and shiny.
Now try measuring between the wire and the guard. It will still be open (no connect. Try the tip screwdriver in the barrel again, looking for at least an intermittent connection. If none, disassemble the handle end and get to just the blade. You measure between the wire and the blade itself. If you can't see any connection between the blade and the wire with the tip screwdriver shorting out the contact in the bottom of the cup to the barrel, you have a broken wire. A rewire will be necessary.
Backing up one step at a time: if you get a connection only when the wire is out of the guard and wire, the problem is likely that you crushed the wire in the handle If you tug on it, it's likely to come apart. Usually, this problem is obvious when you disassemble the weapon.
If you get a connection with an assembled weapon, no tip, but with the wire not in the socket, then you probably still have some insulation on the wire (use sandpaper or emory cloth) or your assembly technique is wrong. Also make sure the socket bracket has a good connection to the guard. You can isolate this problem by testing between the socket bracket (or the big pin connector) and the barrel. There should be a connection.
If you get a connection with the whole handle end of the blade completely assembled, but with the tip out, then you have a tip problem.
If you have a tip problem, first try cleaning. Use a Q-tip soaked with alcohol or contact cleaner run through the barrel. Use the Q-Tip to clean the tip. Use fine sandpaper or emory cloth on the ends of the spring. Make sure the tip is not severely corroded. Make sure the tip fits in the barrel nicely, and is not "stuck". It should slide in and out easily. If it doesn't, your barrel may be out of round; use a mandrel to straighten it, or a reamer to cut it.
If that doesn't work (meaning you assemble, with both screws, and you still have no connect between the socket connections), try changing the spring. Make sure you have the right spring for the tip (the one you have may not be the right kind). If that doesn't work, change the tip (again making sure you have the right tip for the barrel).
If that doesn't work, you need an armorer.
If you can get a reliable connection between the socket connectors when the tip is at rest, depress the tip and make sure the connection breaks. You should read infinite ohms between the socket connectors when the dip is depressed. If you have a connect (small number of ohms) when the tip is depressed or not, but no connect (infinite) when the tip is out, you have a tip problem. Change the spring and/or the tip. If that doesn't work, it usually means that the wire is badly installed, or the wire (cup actually) doesn't match the barrel. The most common problem at this point is the cup not being seated in the right place before gluing. If that is the problem, you need a rewire. If that is not the problem, you need an armorer.
Finally, make sure the connection is made (low ohms) continuously with the tip at rest, but the blade being flexed back and forth, and is open (infinite ohms) continuously when the tip is depressed and you flex the blade. If not, you need a rewire.
(short) If your symptom is that you have low ohms with a fully assembled weapon (including the tip, even if the tip is depressed), start here.
First take the tip out, If you have no connect, the problem is the tip or the spring. First clean the barrel and the tip with a Q-tip and alchohol or contact cleaner. If that doesn't fix it, change the spring, making sure it is the right kind for the tip. If that doesn't work, change the tip, again making sure it matches the barrel. The tip should slide smoothly in and out of the barrel. If not, use a mandrel or a reamer as above. If repairing the barrel or replacing spring/tip doesn't work, the cup may not be seated correctly (see above) and a rewire is needed. If that's not it, you need an armorer.
If you have a connect with the tip out, take the wire off the socket and test between the wire and the guard. If you still have a connect, disassemble the handle end to the blade (with no tip). Test between the wire and the blade itself. If you have a connect, the wire is shorted, you need a rewire.
Backing up a step at a time, if you have no connect with the weapon disassembled, but you have a connect when the handle is on, but the wire is not connected to the socket, then the spaghetti is not insulating the wire; replace the spaghetti.
If you have a connect with the wire on the socket, but not with it off the socket, then the socket is broken, or your assembly technique is bad or the spaghetti is not insulating up to the socket itself.
With just a small amount of patience, would like to ask several questions to help you resolve this puzzle out for you.
1. Are you sanding the wire at the end before wrapping it around the "b" socket?
2. Is this a german set up or french? Reason for the question = had a foil the other day with same problem, young man wired a german barrel with a french wire.
3. What type of spring are you using? German? French?
4. Are you using all new parts, or hodge podge (little for here and there)?
5. Are your screws tight on the barrel to the tip?
6. Take a look at the barrel, you have to look close, but do you notice and cracks in it (look mainly at the base).
Gary Spruill
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackillian
So I've got this foil I've put together.
...twice.
The first time, though it had continuity from plug to cup, then bare wire to cup, when plugged into the test box with a body wire, the test box light wouldn't light up.
Tried another body cord. Tried another plug. Tried another test box. Checked continuity again. Finally realized there was a short... somewhere, as there was continuity between the bellguard and the plug.
Right-o. Rewired it again today, being extra-super-special-crispy-careful.
Well, there's not even a short this time, but it's not lighting up.
What other tests should I be doing to trouble-shoot this thing? Please chime in, O Wise Armourers.
First off, thanks to all. Your suggestions were quite helpful in filling out the areas I hadn't checked.
keith, it's a new socket, a german barrel/wire/tip, and I made sure to try three different bodycords (and then tested them with the meter).
mr biggs and purple fencer, swapped out the spring. same thing.
KD5MDK, yup, I know. I'd just run out of things to troubleshoot o_O
brtech, I did all the applicable tests and all came out as they were supposed to, so it came down to my needing an armourer.
gary, 1. yes. 2. german (wire/cup/barrel/tip) 3. german 4. new or fairly new (as in less than a month) 5. yes they are 6. new barrel, nice and shiny.
...
so here's the really weird part. After trying all the suggestions and coming out with the same results, I decided screw it, I'd bring it to my club's main armourer (he actually sends people to me for some stuff, as he's teaching me to armour). I put it all back together. Mind you, this is the fourth time I've re-assembled this weapon. Once it was assembled again, just for the hell of it, I tested it on the test box.
And it worked.
I have no idea why. Nothing was different.
I went over it all tonight with my club's armourer and he said it was PFM. (pure effing magic) that 1. it didn't work and 2. then it did.
Anyway, thanks all. You were a great help.
__________________ —The situation is hopeless, but not serious.
I had a similar problem, and it was caused by the bell guard breaking the insulation on the shrink tubing around the wire.
I'll be this problem will reappear; and if it does, next time test it without the bell guard.
Yes, this is quite common. In my post above I said
Quote:
Backing up a step at a time, if you have no connect with the weapon disassembled, but you have a connect when the handle is on, but the wire is not connected to the socket, then the spaghetti is not insulating the wire; replace the spaghetti.
There are two things you can do to avoid this problem. One is to make sure the spaghetti comes all the way through the bell guard. With the foil completely assembled, you should see the spaghetti tube come past the guard. This means you DO NOT glue the wire all the way down to the end of the groove. You leave the wide part of the groove unglued so the spaghetti can slide up past the guard. As you assemble the weapon, the spaghetti tends to slip. Even if you slid it up into the wide part of the blade groove, make sure it stays up as you assemble the handle. I've also seen poor technique used in stripping the wire that pulls the spaghetti tube out. After you strip and before you tighten the wire on the socket, check to see that the spaghetti is still visible past the guard.
The other thing is to MAKE SURE that the wire is in the cutout on the handle. You need to start with it in there, and make sure it stays in there while you tighten the handle. If you get the wire crushed between the handle and the guard, you are in for lots of trouble.
Purple Fencer, my club's armourer is ex-Air Force, so that's probably why.
flyingfencer, I did test it without the bellguard (and with).
brtech, I was taught that as well. I've found that with the LP foils, the groove is too small to slip the tubing into, even just a millimeter. Have you encountered that with the LP foils?
__________________ —The situation is hopeless, but not serious.
Purple Fencer, my club's armourer is ex-Air Force, so that's probably why.
flyingfencer, I did test it without the bellguard (and with).
brtech, I was taught that as well. I've found that with the LP foils, the groove is too small to slip the tubing into, even just a millimeter. Have you encountered that with the LP foils?
France Lames was famous for the small notch as well...a few minutes with a dremel or a file fixes that.
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