Competitive experience PRIOR to coaching

[Garrison]

Ahoy ahoy,
If you would, please take a moment to share your competitive pre-coaching resume. Just send along the important stuff; time, weapons and impactful coaches.

I’ll start us off:
1981: red shirt freshman season
1982 - 1985: Michigan State University Fencing Team, sabre squad. Maestro Charles Schmitter, coach.
1986: Started coaching
1986 – 1992: USFA competition in all three weapons
1992 – Present: still coaching, but not competing any longer

Thanks folks,
Mike

[Chafunkta]

Just to keep the thread moving I figured I'd respond.

I'm an assistance coach at my club. I lead the footwork and the group drills for our 2-3 year experienced foil fencers. I'll also give the occassional lesson when I can figure out something to work on with a specific fencer.

My competitive experience is pretty slim. Here goes:

2000-2001: Started fencing at a local club
2001-2004: Did not fence at all because the local club had fallen apart.
2004-present: Have been fencing with the newly formed club. I have a D07 in foil and a D06 in epee, placed in the top 20 of my Section's points list in Foil, and have been to 1 Summer Nationals.

I'm still competing and working my way through the ranks (slowly), but I figure I'll get there eventually. I'd consider myself much more a competitor than a coach, but I do enjoy coaching from time to time.

[Garrison]

Thanks Chafunkta,
I appreciate your info and, frankly, can't understand why yours was the only reply. I'm just trying to get a general idea of how coaches came to be coaches. I don't work for the Dept. of Homeland Security and I'm not asking for social security numbers.

There have been 159 views of this thread and the only people willing to share this info is me and thee?

I'm the new guy on fencing.net, so any advice is appreciated.

Mike

[erooMynohtnA]

1998: Started fencing foil at Cracovia Fencing School in Madison under Krystyna Kostecka
1999: Earned an E in foil
2000: Made an asst. instructor at Cracovia (no actual duties, privileges, or real reason); Earned a D in foil; went to U-16 summer nationals (got killed)
2001: Took 2nd at the Midwest High School Championships in foil
2002: Parted ways as Cracovia hit a major down swing
2003-2005: No fencing
2006: Started fencing at the UW Madison fencing club under Mike Garrison; Re-earned D in foil;
2007: Started giving lessons at the Madison Fencing Academy; studying for USFCA moniteur under Mike Garrison; Earned C in foil

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

I'm going to see if I can get our local coaches to add their info to this...I think it's an interesting and valid question, especially for those who think they may like to coach, but aren't sure if they're as qualified as others who do it.

I've known MANY coaches who had little competitive experience or success, and when they began coaching, I thought to myself "this won't go well." Surprise, surprise, often these people have a great understanding of training and tactics, and work very well with individuals who want to learn the sport.

I've done some coaching...a couple years at the Beloit College club in Beloit, Wisconsin, and some assistant work around 2003-2004 at the Seacoast Fencing Club in Dover, NH (before the move to Rochester, NH). At that time, I had been fencing on and off since about 1988. I was a "C" foilist (since lost due to lack of fencing), and the head coach liked the way I worked with youth.

Mike...why don't you compete any more? When we fenced together in Rockford, I thought you were pretty good and you enjoyed it!

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Garrison

can't understand why yours was the only reply.

Mostly because few of us see the point?

1994 Started fencing (epee) on the team at Johns Hopkins (coach Dick Oles)
1997 Earned C in epee (E and D earlier in career)
1998 Graduated, moved to the club at UMass
Earned B in epee
1999 Started fencing sabre (mostly self-coached)
Left grad school, moved to Boston
2000 Moved back to Amherst, started coaching UMass.
Earned C in sabre (E and D previously)
Gradually shifted from primary epee to epee/sabre to primary sabre (still mostly self-coached)
2001 Earned B in sabre
Earned A in sabre
Started annually (mostly) attending Coaches College
2002 Earned C in foil (E and D previously)
2003 First earned National Points in sabre
Taking epee lessons from Gamal Mahmoud
2004 Left UMass for a full-time job coaching at Temple
Present: Still coaching full-time at Temple.
Still competing, primarily in sabre.
Still mostly self-coached.

How does a timeline like that help anyone else become a coach?

-B

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

How does a timeline like that help anyone else become a coach?
-B

Thanks for the post Brad.
I didn't start this thread or post this question to help others become a coach. I was merely curious. I'm have no devious motive. I was just interested in the histories of other coaches.

It's one of the sad realities of coaching that we so infrequently see each other. When we do, it's usually in an adversarial environment. I've attended several coaching clinics and found the camaradeire and fellowship wonderful.

As I said before, I'm new to fencing.net, so I'm sure my initial posts and comments will illicit smirks from the veterans. Perhaps you're right and this question holds no real interest to other coaches or fencers. I was going to ask about more important stuff, like your haircut, but some seasoned pro beat me to that punch.

Mike

[Hobbes]

I am by no means a veteran, but I think it is not so much a smirk at your comment, but more where you placed it. Something like this should be either in the main fencing category or the water cooler. I believe this category is more intended for advice and information about how to coach.

I don't know, I might be way off base. someone back me up or put me in my place

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Garrison

I didn't start this thread or post this question to help others become a coach.

Sorry, was basing that on the implied reason in this post:

Originally Posted by Garrison

I'm just trying to get a general idea of how coaches came to be coaches.

You asked why people weren't posting resumés. I gave the reason why _I_ hadn't originally posted mine (I was one of the 159 views), which is that I didn't see the point. I still don't. No smirk intended.

Quite simply you asked for advice on why there was but a single response. It was to that inquiry that I was responding.

Hobbes- I have no issue with this being in the coaching subforum. Water cooler would work, general fencing discussion would be not quite as reasonable as here. If anything this is probably the best place for it.

I suppose the original point could have been more to help coaches get to know each other a bit better. I'm not sure that comparing competitive histories is the best approach towards that goal.

My favorite type of ice cream is Peanut Butter Cup with Chocolate (or pretty much anything similar). I really enjoy brownies, and putting an ice cream sundae on a brownie is basically building an ideal desert.

I like reading SF and historical fiction. I enjoy SF frequently, even when it's bad, but I like very good HF more (I just dislike most average or below HF). So while I consider myself an SF fan, most of my favorite books/authors are HF.

I want to have a dog, but with my current travel schedule think it would be unfair to both of us. I hope, eventually, to get one, likely either a Golden or a Great Dane.

I spend entirely too much time online. Much of it here.

Those comments all seem better suited towards helping someone get a sense of who I am and build connections than merely knowing that I earned my A six years ago, or even that my first coach was Dick Oles.

-B

[Garrison]

Thanks Brad,
Peanut butter. Brownies. Ice Cream. Big dogs. Good Sci Fi or very good High Fantasy. Dick Oles. I think I've got it.

What do you think of this..? It's my belief that one of the prerequisites for success as a coach is that one must have been a serious, competitive fencer. To be clear, I'm not claiming that you need a closet full of World Cup trophies or Olympic medals. I am contending, however, that one needs a substantial core of personal, competitive experiences upon which to build a coaching repertoire. Without that critical, competitive sub-structure, I believe your coaching efforts are diminished.

This is merely my opinion and I’m sure there are fine coaches with limited competitive experience. I would bet, however, that they are rare individuals; perhaps gifted with extraordinary capacity for learning and teaching.

I’d be very interested to hear your opinion(s).

Thanks again,
Mike

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Garrison

very good High Fantasy.

Historical Fiction. Fantasy rates similarly to SF for me, but I don't enjoy bad fantasy nearly as much as I enjoy bad SF.

Originally Posted by Garrison

What do you think of this..? It's my belief that one of the prerequisites for success as a coach is that one must have been a serious, competitive fencer. To be clear, I'm not claiming that you need a closet full of World Cup trophies or Olympic medals. I am contending, however, that one needs a substantial core of personal, competitive experiences upon which to build a coaching repertoire. Without that critical, competitive sub-structure, I believe your coaching efforts are diminished.

I disagree with it. They are separate skills. Related skills, but distinct. There are people that are very strong coaches with no (or next to no) competitive history to speak of. There are very strong former fencers who couldn't coach effectively at all.

Does it help to have the experience of a high-level competitor? Yes, frequently. A prerequisite? Absolutely not.

-B

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

I disagree with it. They are separate skills. Related skills, but distinct. There are people that are very strong coaches with no (or next to no) competitive history to speak of. There are very strong former fencers who couldn't coach effectively at all. Does it help to have the experience of a high-level competitor? Yes, frequently. A prerequisite? Absolutely not.
-B

Thanks for your insight Brad.
I agree with you that fencing and coaching are separate skills. However, I would contend that good coaching is a subset of good fencing; separate to be sure, but connected as child to parent.

In much the same way that you could not understand calculus without a basic understanding of algebra, I don’t see how you could teach a beat attack without ever having done one yourself in a competitive context. Wouldn’t this explanation be theoretical at best, and no better than what the student may attain from a thorough reading of Szabo?

Thanks again for your thoughts on this topic. I appreciate your time and willingness to share your opinions.

Mike

[oiuyt]

Except that we have examples of people who were not strong fencers (or not fencers at all) and became very strong coaches.

-B

[Allen Evans]

And just the opposite as well: good fencers who are not good coaches (I'm not going to embarress anyone by naming names).

Originally Posted by Garrison

However, I would contend that good coaching is a subset of good fencing; separate to be sure, but connected as child to parent.

I would strongly disagree that good coaching is a subset of good fencing. That would imply that good coaches have to be good fencers first, and we already know that this is not the case.

I've ignored this thread until now. Coaches who list their competitive results as teaching credentials always leave me thinking: "Never mind training with you: tell me who your coach was, and I'll go to them."

AE

[Allen Evans]

To add...

I wrote this a year ago. It doesn't directly bear on the question/discussion, but I believe it now, still:

For 90% of the fencers in the United States, a top coach with Olympic credentials would be wasted on them.

I'm always surprised that fencers look for, or even demand, high level credentials when they look at training with a coach, even though the vast majority of these fencers cannot 1) Make a two tempo advance, 2) lunge by starting their point to the target, or 3) parry adequately in all four lines.

I remember the first time one of the National Coaches gave a seminar in my Division (Western Washington, at the time). He started out the seminar by telling all of us that he wasn't going to tell us or show us anything that our local coaches hadn't shown us previously, but we were going to pay more attention to him because he was from out of town, and we were paying him more.

And he was absolutely right.

That's not to say that the United States wouldn't benefit from doubling the number of quality coaches in the country. But a coach with a decent level of local experiance, exposure at the National level, and good teaching skills in the fundementals of fencing should be able to turn out "D" and "C" level fencers all year long if the coach's students listen to what the coach has to say, bring some physical and mental skills to the table, and train. For most fencers in the United States, earning a "C" would be a good accomplishment, a credit to them, and to their coach.

[Garrison]

Gentlemen,
I think a misunderstanding has cropped up. I’m not saying that one must have been an Olympic fencer to be an Olympic coach. I agree that your level of fencing success is not an indicator of your level of coaching success. Rather, I said you must have been serious and competitive.

This is all too true in other sports as well, with high-level players often making horrible coaches and players who never reached the rarified air of hyper-success making great coaches. I’m thinking of people like Mike Ditka (football) and Phil Jackson (basketball). However, both Ditka and Jackson, while not superstar players, were serious and competitive

Perhaps I’m all wet here Brad, because I don’t know any of the people you’re referring to when you say, “Except that we have examples of people who were not strong fencers (or not fencers at all) and became very strong coaches.”

I’d like to meet these folks. To date, I have not. To date, the coaches I’ve met who’ve no fencing experience tend to be very poor coaches.

Finally, to Allen… I was not listing my competitive experience as a “coaching resume”. I was, and still am, curious to see whether mine was a popular path to coaching.

Thank you both for your comments,

Mike

[keith]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Rather, I said you must have been serious and competitive.

What is a competitive fencer - someone who has competed successfully, competes regularly, or has been gubbed by various points holders at Div1 NACs?

I'm even less sure what a serious fencer is - by my own standards I was only, briefly, a serious fencer; didn't stop me from doing coaching courses/exams. In fact it was one of the reasons I became interested in coaching.

Or at the risk of causing offense (and none is intended) I would say from your outline there is no evidence that you were a competitive or serious fencer indeed Oiuyt clearly appears to be a more serious and competitive fencer....

......but given that I know neither of you I don't have a damned idea which is the better coach.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Finally, to Allen… I was not listing my competitive experience as a “coaching resume”. I was, and still am, curious to see whether mine was a popular path to coaching.

I'm with Brad on this, in that I don't really see the point (though perhaps for different reasons than Brad). For domestic, US Coaches, the path for 50-70 percent of them is the same as yours: coaches start fencing at a local club, or in college. They really love the sport. Their club or team needs coaching assistance and they volunteer. After one or five or ten or...years they realize they are coaching more than they are fencing and they realize they are coaches. They attend the USFA Coaches College (or don't) and keep coaching. Maybe they continue to fence (like Brad) or stop (like me). There are usually one or two coaches that have a serious impact on their game in that time.

No smirk here, I just think all of us have the same story and telling it doesn't mean much, build the community stronger, or help us get to know each other better. On the other hand, I too, like chocolate ice cream and science fiction.

"Serious and competitive" means a lot of different things to each of us. My idea of "serious and competitive" is a lot different than a coach at a local "Y", I would bet. Hence, some of my comments.

Coaches who were terriable fencers? Emil Beck. There seems to be little evidence that he was trained to fence at all, and no evidence that he went through any coaching program. Yet, he founded and led Tauberbishofstein for some time, producing some of the best fencers in the world.

AE