Veterans Fencing in Div I

[sabreteur]

I just fenced my first Div I in sabre yesterday. I didn't quite come in last, but it was close. I saw some amazing fencing (mainly at the juncture of my lame and my opponent's weapon ). My only personal regret was being so nervous that I kept blowing my distance and threw away most of my attacks.

I've got a question for the community at large. Generally speaking, the vibe I've picked up* seems to be that vets aren't particularly welcome at Div I. I think one argument was that we're denying the people in our pool the chance to compete against someone good.

What's your take on it?

*Please note that everyone yesterday was friendly and gracious. It was like any other tournament, other than flashing back to the kind of butt kicking I used to get as a newbie.

[Peach]

There are times I haven't felt as if I belonged nearly as much in Division I as I used to, particularly the last couple of years, and especially in women's sabre as an influx of kids came in and raised the hopes of referees, coaches, and parents about our chances in international competition. However, I'd say very few people feel *welcome* in Division I and it has little to do with whether you are a veteran, a routine top-32 finisher, or a newly-minted C fencer from Nowhere. It's serious competition, and there are usually a handful of people at the top fighting it out with the rest of us scrambling.

I don't enter as many of them as I used to now that I'm in the Vet-50 events and in the running for world team, mostly because I don't take Div I as seriously as I used to. However, since I can't compete in the Div II events yet, assuming my B ages out by 2009, I always enter the Div I that is partnered with the veteran events in December. I enjoy it and it's good competition.

Originally Posted by sabreteur

I just fenced my first Div I in sabre yesterday. I didn't quite come in last, but it was close. I saw some amazing fencing (mainly at the junction of my lame and my opponent's weapon ). My only personal regret was being so nervous that I kept blowing my distance and threw away most of my attacks.

I've got a question for the community at large. Generally speaking, the vibe I've picked up* seems to be that vets aren't particularly welcome at Div I. I think one argument was that we're denying the people in our pool the chance to compete against someone good.

What's your take on it?

*Please note that everyone yesterday was friendly and gracious. It was like any other tournament, other than flashing back to the kind of butt kicking I used to get as a newbie.

[CvilleFencer]

I think Peach sort of nailed it in that few people feel "welcome" in Div I. I think it has a lot less to do with your being a vet fencer and a lot more to do with A: a certain arrogance among some fencers, and B: the level of pressure that some fencers/coaches/parent/etc put on the participants to excel. As such I think that some people might have a certain "I am above the masses" attitude but I think they are by far the minority.

However, anyone that does not think that Richards, Hoffman, Dragonetti, Dew, Timocheff, and many other notables don't belong and are stupid enough to not give the their due while fencing, they are going to have a pretty short day...

Personally, I would prefer to keep the kids that seem to have the skills to fence Div I but not the maturity to refrain from screaming after every touch like the just got gutshot or go tossing their kit across room like it was a sport in and off itself, away from the grownups table... In short, my personal prejudice runs the other direction in that I think you should have to be old enough by a round for your fellow competitors after the event in order to fence "senior"!

It's Div I. If you got the rating to enter, you belong there regardless of age or unfortunately, emotional maturity level. Don't let a handful of people who have forgotten that it is a sport and not life or death or some sort of social club ruin your NAC experience.

[epeeinacup666]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

...It's Div I. If you got the rating to enter, you belong there regardless of age or unfortunately, emotional maturity level. Don't let a handful of people who have forgotten that it is a sport and not life or death or some sort of social club ruin your NAC experience.

You nailed it,CvilleFencer...and BTW,eventhough I'm a 40+ 'vet',I got Nat'l points today(somewhere between 24th and 12th place)in Div-1 ME,so bring on those whipper-snappers!!!!

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by sabreteur

I just fenced my first Div I in sabre yesterday. I didn't quite come in last, but it was close.

I've got a question for the community at large. Generally speaking, the vibe I've picked up* seems to be that vets aren't particularly welcome at Div I. I think one argument was that we're denying the people in our pool the chance to compete against someone good.

What's your take on it?

In my one and only Div I, Columbus, I was seeded next to last and finished with 2 behind me. I beat my seed!

I do agree that Div I is different. I would describe it as a "grimness" factor. The top people are fighting for World and even Olympic team and many of the others are slogging up the ladder. With so few rewards at the end, every touch and every decision are important. While we Veterans may be able to rationalize that what comes around, goes around, everything not gained in Div I is a tragedy.

Of course, in Epee, the hotshots are fearful that the old forts will beat their butts. John Moreau has more to show, so far, for fencing Div I than for Vets Worlds. In Foil the kids get confused by the different fencing styles of we mature souls. In Sabre, there is not as much bragging rights as with their younger colleagues.

I have felt more slighted by an opponent in Div III than Div I. There was this one @#$%^&* who, as we were getting ready to test in Sabre, suddenly reached out and touched me so he could get one light and I would have to wait for the machine to reset. I know it was intentional and was also consistent with little piddly things he did to the other pool participants.

My complaint in Div I Sabre was that the Director showed lack of respect, rather than my opponent. After several frustrating calls, when I did have one action I thought was mine, I challenged the director a little. He very slowly and distinctly called it against me. And, where in other competitions opponents have acknowledged touches, this probably 50 year younger one didn't - every touch awarded in Div I is important.

[sabreteur]

Originally Posted by epeeinacup666

You nailed it,CvilleFencer...and BTW,eventhough I'm a 40+ 'vet',I got Nat'l points today(somewhere between 24th and 12th place)in Div-1 ME,so bring on those whipper-snappers!!!!

National points. How cool is that? Congrats!

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by epeeinacup666

You nailed it,CvilleFencer...and BTW,eventhough I'm a 40+ 'vet',I got Nat'l points today(somewhere between 24th and 12th place)in Div-1 ME,so bring on those whipper-snappers!!!!

You just did that to screw up our seeding for the rest of the year.










Congrats!

[JEC]

Originally Posted by epeeinacup666

You nailed it,CvilleFencer...and BTW,eventhough I'm a 40+ 'vet',I got Nat'l points today(somewhere between 24th and 12th place)in Div-1 ME,so bring on those whipper-snappers!!!!

Congrats, R. Well deserved!

[JEC]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

You just did that to screw up our seeding for the rest of the year.

I don't think so. In fact, now he is going to be seeded where he belongs. Every so often, we got 2 A's pool. For some you have a chance, for others like him it is going back to school. You hate to have two of the latter in the pool. One and one is a good combination if they are well seeded.

[teamusaepee]

Originally Posted by sabreteur

I've got a question for the community at large. Generally speaking, the vibe I've picked up* seems to be that vets aren't particularly welcome at Div I. I think one argument was that we're denying the people in our pool the chance to compete against someone good.

Div 1's a bloodbath and has a totally different atmosphere than a Div 2/3. I'm not saying it's better, though I love the intensity and I can't get a better sense of my current ability anywhere else. But it is different.

Speaking of veterans in it, I almost always see Margo Miller in the Div 1 epee but I don't think I've ever seen her in a Vet event. She usually makes the 32 and regularly does better than that. BTW, props to epeeinacup for winning his national points!

This usually goes for most opponents (in epee at least), but especially in Div 1, underestimating anyone (because of their age, rating, seed, etc.) is a mistake.

[sheck]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

My complaint in Div I Sabre was that the Director showed lack of respect, rather than my opponent. After several frustrating calls, when I did have one action I thought was mine, I challenged the director a little. He very slowly and distinctly called it against me. And, where in other competitions opponents have acknowledged touches, this probably 50 year younger one didn't - every touch awarded in Div I is important.

I think the last Vet men's sabre fencer (although he hasn't fenced in any Vet tournaments) to make points was John Friedberg and that was over a year ago. It just doesn't happen much in sabre and refs / coaches in power like it that way. I was the highest placing Vet at last weeks CBO and lost to a kid 15-11 who placed 32nd at this latest NAC. I gave up fencing Div 1 in 1998.

[Inquartata]

If I had won my DE, I would have gotten points. At least I think I would have done; the kid who beat me did. It was a near thing.

There is an element of the fraternity in, say, the top third of Div I, at least in sabre, to which I confine my remarks. They all know each other, many socialize with each other at tournaments and almost certainly elsewhere. This is why you see so many of them hugging after bouts. Those who are 'up and coming' are at the fringes of this fraternity, but it is obvious that many are headed into it and so they too are accepted. Then there is another layer, made up of fencers who occasionally enter a Div I NAC when it's in a nearby city but don't usually perform too well. And Vets are often in this latter category, where in addition to their relative unfamiliarity there is the 'generation gap' to take into account.

I think that the young guns are apt to regard us veterans with a mixture of that diffidence with which youth greets age and the the distance with which we greet strangers...and yes, a bit of that 'we are the champions, you creak when you walk' attitude. Though to their credit many of them manage to overcome all of that and unbend a little, albeit they still cling to their established cliques.

As for the referees and officials, I know of only one who is said to have expressed the belief that Veterans ought not be permitted in Division I, and that one only by hearsay. ( It is a damned high-ranking one, though. ) I have gotten a few whiffs of the 'of course you didn't get the touch, what did you expect, you ancient duffer?' attitude; but in the main the refereeing I have gotten has been fair to all appearances.

None of this is to say that Veterans are welcomed or made to feel comfortable in Div I. As Peach says, no one outside the fraternity really is, and even those in it don't always seem fond of each other.

In which regard, I will add that the Div I WS today seemed particularly marked by venomous looks exchanged and icy, perfunctory handshakes. Some of those ladies really didn't seem to like each other at all.

I blame all the celebratory screaming and dancing.

[eac]

I think, like everyone said in this thread, probably everyone who hasn't placed top-16 at least twice in Div I feels unwelcome. I have points, and I know I feel unwelcome. I think it's because if you *have* placed top 16 twice, probably you are to the point where somebody hitting you in a DE says "well, sh!t." some significant percentage of the time. If you *haven't*, the intensity of Div I is such that everybody wants it so much that they almost hate you for taking their spot. This applies to people of all ages.

[Inquartata]

Well---it depends. I have seen "new" people from, say, the Westbrook Foundation get a hail-fellow-well-met reception from the top guys...before they have shown any results. Probably because they are well known to many from practices and loacal tournaments.

As with everything, who you know seems to help a great deal with acceptance.

[sheck]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

If I had won my DE, I would have gotten points. At least I think I would have done; the kid who beat me did. It was a near thing.

There is an element of the fraternity in, say, the top third of Div I, at least in sabre, to which I confine my remarks. They all know each other, many socialize with each other at tournaments and almost certainly elsewhere. This is why you see so many of them hugging after bouts. Those who are 'up and coming' are at the fringes of this fraternity, but it is obvious that many are headed into it and so they too are accepted. Then there is another layer, made up of fencers who occasionally enter a Div I NAC when it's in a nearby city but don't usually perform too well. And Vets are often in this latter category, where in addition to their relative unfamiliarity there is the 'generation gap' to take into account.

I think that the young guns are apt to regard us veterans with a mixture of that diffidence with which youth greets age and the the distance with which we greet strangers...and yes, a bit of that 'we are the champions, you creak when you walk' attitude. Though to their credit many of them manage to overcome all of that and unbend a little, albeit they still cling to their established cliques.

As for the referees and officials, I know of only one who is said to have expressed the belief that Veterans ought not be permitted in Division I, and that one only by hearsay. ( It is a damned high-ranking one, though. ) I have gotten a few whiffs of the 'of course you didn't get the touch, what did you expect, you ancient duffer?' attitude; but in the main the refereeing I have gotten has been fair to all appearances.

Well---it depends. I have seen "new" people from, say, the Westbrook Foundation get a hail-fellow-well-met reception from the top guys...before they have shown any results. Probably because they are well known to many from practices and loacal tournaments.

As with everything, who you know seems to help a great deal with acceptance.
_

Back when I fenced Div 1 sabre it was the NYC Sabre Mafia (FC and NYAC). I was friendly with some of these guys (still am) but they were the top dogs and made it known.

Also to bad you didn't ruin the kids day. LOL!

[sabreteur]

Inquartata congrats on the near miss. You'll snag some next time.

[dridge]

Originally Posted by eac

. . . the intensity of Div I is such that everybody wants it so much that they almost hate you for taking their spot. This applies to people of all ages.

I have never felt unwelcome in Div 1. Fencers and directors have always been courteous. I hope that this applies to everyone, regardless of age (or classification, for that matter), just as eac wrote.

No one has ever suggested that my presence has diminished the quality of their experience.

In fact, people often seem pleased to find me in their pool or DE path.

If they aren't fencing well enough to displace me, then it's probably just not their day to do well in Div 1.

Drew

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

If I had won my DE, I would have gotten points. At least I think I would have done; the kid who beat me did. It was a near thing.

Actually... if you had won that one, you would have fenced me for points.

[epeeinacup666]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

You just did that to screw up our seeding for the rest of the year.










Congrats!

My plan all along....heh-heh-heh !

...also thanks Saberteur and JEC

[piste off]

Originally Posted by dridge

In fact, people often seem pleased to find me in their pool or DE path.

Pure BS. Unless they are an idiot.

Rick