Grip Conversion

[brokentime]

Dear Experts

I fence foil and would like to move from a french grip to an orthopaedic grip, for various reasons.

I have quite a nice blade, but it has a french grip and equivalent size tang. As this obviously means I can't have a strightforward pistol grip, are there any other options?

I have looked Belgian grips. Can these fit on a french grip length tang?

Alternatively, do any manufacturers have a service cutting the tangs off french grip length blades to enable pistol grip use?!

Any links to shops etc additionally appreciated.

Thanks

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[erooMynohtnA]

If the threading goes all the way down the tang, you'll have no problems. Just cut the tang with a hacksaw.

If the threading is only at the end, you'll have to thread it.

This is basic armoring and depending on where you are, you should be able to find someone to help or just do it for you.

[Purple Fencer]

Converting a french tang to a pistol tang is very common, but you have to watch for a few things.

1...make sure the new grip fits all the way down to the shoulder...sometimes they bind up when you get to the square part of the tang. if that happens, a few minutes with a goos file or a bench grinder will narrow the tang enough for the grip to go on.

2...where to make teh cut depends on if you;re using an inside or outside hex pommel. An outside looks like a coupling nut...hexagonal on the outside edges (hence the name), inside is a cylinder with a hex recess in one end for an allen wrench (6mm).

3. If you're going to an outside hex, put the grip on teh blade and mark the tang where it comes out of the grip (I use whiteout for this), then remove the grip and cut the tang a few threads below that mark (to allow for the guard, pad, and socket). Baddaa bing...you're done!

4. if you;re going to an inside hex, you need to be a bit more careful...if you cut it too short, the remaining tang will not project out of the hole and you won;t be able to get a nut on it! GENERALLY the littel shelf where the nut compresses is even with the front of the top prong on the grip...the part that going between your thumb and forefinger. Put ALL the parts on the weapon and mark tang as above. Then insert a probe inside the grip until you come into contact with the nut shelf and measure that length. Make a 2nd mark on teh tang that shows where that shelf is on the tang and cut between them...if in doubt, cut long...you can always cut more off later.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

If the threading goes all the way down the tang, you'll have no problems. Just cut the tang with a hacksaw.

If the threading is only at the end, you'll have to thread it.

This is basic armoring and depending on where you are, you should be able to find someone to help or just do it for you.

It's a pain but there is a reason to cut the threads before you cut off the tang.

If you cut first, it can be hard to start the die.

Better to cut the tang while the die is all the way towards the tip. Then after the tang is cut, you clean out the threads as you take the die off.

If you really have no one around with armoring experience, take the blade and the right die (probably 6 x 1 mm - available in your local hardware store) to your local one man auto garage or DIY lawn motor repairman. Cutting the thread and the blade doesn't need any fencing experience.

If PF has made you nervous about getting the tang cut off to the right length, find someone who uses the same grip and pommel nut that you want to use. Then beg them to tell you just how long the tang should be. Maybe they have a broken or spare blade for an example.

Then write that length on the back of your driver's license. Or in your Bible.

[brtech]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

4. if you;re going to an inside hex, you need to be a bit more careful...if you cut it too short, the remaining tang will not project out of the hole and you won;t be able to get a nut on it! GENERALLY the littel shelf where the nut compresses is even with the front of the top prong on the grip...the part that going between your thumb and forefinger. Put ALL the parts on the weapon and mark tang as above. Then insert a probe inside the grip until you come into contact with the nut shelf and measure that length. Make a 2nd mark on teh tang that shows where that shelf is on the tang and cut between them...if in doubt, cut long...you can always cut more off later.

WARNING, THREAD DRIFT IN PROGRESS

This prompts me to ask the question: why does anyone choose inside hex if they have a choice?

Inside hex has this problem, and it has the related problem of the folks who cut it too long, wind it down until the inside hex wrench doesn't work, grab a big screwdriver, wind it down some more, and then present it to an armorer when they can't get it off. It's also easier to "bugger" the inside hex shape (the nuts tend to be fairly soft). The outside hex has none of these problems, and is cheaper and easier to find.

So, why do people choose inside hex?

[wbowman]

In fact, why choose a hex at all? All my pommels are screwdriver-slotted, and I have a short, chunky screwdriver that I keep in the same bag as my spare body cords. I can't believe how many people don't have the proper tool near the strip with them when they need to tighten a grip and start calling out to see if anyone has one. This especially seems to be true of the outside-hex crowd.

[Chafunkta]

Originally Posted by wbowman

In fact, why choose a hex at all? All my pommels are screwdriver-slotted, and I have a short, chunky screwdriver that I keep in the same bag as my spare body cords. I can't believe how many people don't have the proper tool near the strip with them when they need to tighten a grip and start calling out to see if anyone has one. This especially seems to be true of the outside-hex crowd.

I've had way more problems with the screwdriver slot on the inside hex nut, and I've seen many people with the same problem. The nuts I've been using are pretty soft, and they can be stripped very easily. I also very rarely see someone use a screwdriver of the proper size. You get a much better fit with an allen wrench for the inside hex nut. I've almost slapped screwdrivers out of people's hands when they try to tighten the nut.

That being said, I'm going to have to agree with brtech for the ban on inside hex nuts. They always get stripped and they have the problem of the tang being cut too long. The outside hex hardly ever strips, and it doesn't matter the length of your tang.

[Joe biebel]

Originally Posted by brtech

WARNING, THREAD DRIFT IN PROGRESS

This prompts me to ask the question: why does anyone choose inside hex if they have a choice?

Inside hex has this problem, and it has the related problem of the folks who cut it too long, wind it down until the inside hex wrench doesn't work, grab a big screwdriver, wind it down some more, and then present it to an armorer when they can't get it off. It's also easier to "bugger" the inside hex shape (the nuts tend to be fairly soft). The outside hex has none of these problems, and is cheaper and easier to find.

So, why do people choose inside hex?

The inside hex does not have a problem. There are fencers that have no clue about gear or anything mechanical or electrical, and no amount of "foolproofing" of gear will stop them from doing foolish things. The inside hex has a very small amount surface area touching the inside bottom of the handle hole. Without washers or spacers of some kind it will damage (dig out) the "flat" at the bottom of the hole, damaging the handle and causing it loosen as the aluminum wears away. The screwdriver type pommel allows the least amount of torque to be applied (loosest pommel) and my experience has been that fencers with this system are tightening the handle more than with "hex" systems. at any rate, I don't think it is so much which system you use as how well you use it. Common sense is not quite so common as you might think.

[brtech]

We all carry chunky screwdrivers for weirdos who only have screwdriver slots. I've never seen one with a T handle, and I suspect that's why you get the least torque, and therefore the most problems with loose handles.

No matter what nut you use, you need a split ring washer at the bottom, or you will have the handle loosen constantly. The inside hex nut users are the ones who often need to put 2 (or 3 or 4!!!) washers in there to fix the length-of-tang problem. Really, they should be using ONE split ring, and then as many flat washers as needed. Split ring on split ring doesn't work well, but if they used outside hex, there wouldn't be any need for more than one washer period. The split ring washer is what touches the bottom of the handle, not the nut. It doesn't matter what the shape of the nut is (as long as you use the washer, of course).

Y'all know that the outside hex nut (and the washer) is a standard hardware item, and nearly any metric fastener shop will stock them, right? The inside hex nut is custom made for fencing.

[Purple Fencer]

Screwdriver slot = bad! Too easy to deform the slot and you really cant get enough torque on it.

People use inside hex pommels because if the tang gets tweaked and the outside of the nut is touching teh inside of the grip, you have no problem getting the wrench on the pommel, which IS a problem on the outside hex nut.

The inside hex, however, IS much easier to cut the tang for.

One problem with the nut coming loose is due to the nut shelf..it looks like there is NO finishing work done on them much of the time.

First off, there is no reason the hole inside the grip has to be round...a squafer hole (like up at the nose) would leave a LOT more material for the washer to seat on.

What shelf there is of often small and off-center, again leading to the washer or nut being unable to seat properly.

Another prob is the shelf isn;t flat, so there's not much to seat on...it;s kinda bowed down. The manufacturers (Uhlamnn most notably) don;t want to spend the extra money on putting and end mill down there and flattening the shelf out.

When my own grips come out, however, these are things i WILL have done, as well as a couple of other items...I'm talking with an overseas gu now about doing it, but need to get the grips modeled.

[Joe biebel]

The way that most pistol grip handles are machined, you pretty much need a lockwasher before the nut goes on. The standard hole is drilled with a regular drill bit which will leave a beveled angle at the bottom of the hole. This is the main cause of loosening nuts. The nut or washer will wear into the aluminum of the handle as it is only touching on a very small amount of surface area on the beveled hole bottom. A lock washer will help to keep things tighter as it will expand as vibration and use tend to loosen the handle as the nut or washer work their way into the metal handle. A pad that squeezes over time will have the same effect. The weapons I make and use, have the handles "improved" by using a flat drill bit to make the hole flat. I also use a clear pad that will not compress. I use no washers of any kind and my handles will no come loose. Okay, that last sentence is not true. The last tournament I fenced in had a handle come loose. First time in at least 5 years. I did not even have a wrench handy. I used to keep one in my back pocket until I figured out what was causing the loosening.

When I work on other peoples gear, I noticed that when I take the handle off and tap it against the workbench, that besides the washers falling out, there is always aluminum "filings" coming out with them. With 2 flat surfaces, the nut will not grind it's way into the handle. And except for an extreme rarity, will not loosen. Also, I use the best pommels (largest diameter inside hex) that I can find. I have bought some "cheapies" recently that had slightly large, loose threading and poor hex holes with a fairly soft metal. Live and learn. These techniques would also work with an outside hex nut, with the addition of a washer to improve the surface area contact with the handle.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by brtech

WARNING, THREAD DRIFT IN PROGRESS

So, why do people choose inside hex?

Because as PF mentioned, if the tang gets bent it can make it difficult to get a hold of an outside hex pommel (at which point you end up being forced to do nasty things like drive the wrench down with a mallet).

Still, I almost always use outside hex for club weapons simply because college students tend to constantly swap blades and grips around and the last thing that I need to worry about is if the tang is cut to the proper length.

I do use inside hex for my personal weapons. My grips tend to be a little longer then most, so I usually order blades with full length tangs and cut them down myself. This usually entails cutting the tang down to maybe 10 cm first, seeing how it fits, then often going back and trimming another cm or so off before I'm done.

I also have a T-handle screwdriver that can be used to tighten pommels however it is more for those poor, unfortunate souls who insist on using screwdriver pommels then for my personal use. One of these days I'm going to clean out my tool case, at which point maybe I'll finally pull that one out (along with the BNC shorts that we used to used when troubleshooting electric saber).

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by wbowman

In fact, why choose a hex at all? All my pommels are screwdriver-slotted, and I have a short, chunky screwdriver that I keep in the same bag as my spare body cords. I can't believe how many people don't have the proper tool near the strip with them when they need to tighten a grip and start calling out to see if anyone has one. This especially seems to be true of the outside-hex crowd.

I even have a screwdriver with the center recessed for those rare occasions where the end of the tang sticks up so much that a flat end screwdriver can't bite.

Sears sells a big monster, but relatively short, blade screwdriver that is good for this. I even drilled a transvers hole with a 40 penny spike in it to REALLY get some leverage.

If I could find them I would post a picture. Unfortunately I have been reorganizing my cellar.......

Well I sat down, crossed my legs, put my upturned palms on my knees, said Ommmmmmmm, and

[brokentime]

Thanks all for your good advie, I didn't realise that a club armourer could deal with this!!

On a side note, what is hex?

[erooMynohtnA]

If you look at the nut in a pistol grip, it will most likely have a hexagonal pattern on it instead of a slot for screwdrivers. You use a "hex wrench" to tighten it. Sometimes the hex pattern is on the inside, and sometimes it's on the outside (those require different wrenches).

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by brokentime

Thanks all for your good advie, I didn't realise that a club armourer could deal with this!!

On a side note, what is hex?

Dude...where ae you? maybe one of us can point you to an armorer in your area.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by brtech

We all carry chunky screwdrivers for weirdos who only have screwdriver slots. I've never seen one with a T handle, and I suspect that's why you get the least torque, and therefore the most problems with loose handles.

A few years ago, I bought a T-handle for my inside Hex at a shop that only sells to workshops, they do not sell to private customers. Really practical! It is so long so that one can rotate the handle past the long part of the pistol grip, no need to change position.

I really should look into the topic of non-flat seating surfaces.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[brokentime]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Dude...where ae you? maybe one of us can point you to an armorer in your area.

Thanks but I'm UK based!

I'll try my club's armourer who seems reasonable adept.

[rory]

Try http://fencingforum.com/forum.
It's a UK based forum, much like this one.

[brokentime]

Originally Posted by rory

Try http://fencingforum.com/forum.
It's a UK based forum, much like this one.

Thanks Ror, I have had lurked there in the past but you would be lucky if 2 or 3 people posted in a day... it's practically dead.