Can lame jackets be too large

[Barry Paul]

Can lame jackets be too large, resulting in a rejection/card by a referee
If so where is the rule ?

A child fencer in Canada was prevented in using a lame jacket by an USA referee because it was too large went more than 40 mm below the hip bone. Is there any technical/safety rule that covers this?

[erooMynohtnA]

All I can think of off the top of my head is he rule about folds that would catch the blade.

[yeoldearmourer]

Barry here again the only thing I can think of and looked up is the matter of saftey can it catch a point in the folds of the lame. The lame must reach the top of the hip bone. I don't know were the 40 mm below the hip came from. I will reread the rules again. Rule m28 state that the lame must cover the target area in the enguard and lunge position. But here again to large of a lame can cause touches not to score therefore it can be rule both from a saftey stand point and scoring it can be rejected by the referee or a armourer.

[Joe biebel]

Can lame jackets be too large, resulting in a rejection/card by a referee
If so where is the rule ?

A child fencer in Canada was prevented in using a lame jacket by an USA referee because it was too large went more than 40 mm below the hip bone. Is there any technical/safety rule that covers this?

The only thing I can think of as a possible reason for rejecting a "too large" lame would be safety. Certainly not for catching the point. The only problem I can see with excess target is the possibility of tripping on too long of a jacket/cuissard strap. Most questions with lames (size) legality comes from not covering enough target. I would maintain that a too large lame is an aesthetic, rather than a rules infraction. The "fashion police" should have been called.

Just had an incident at a local meet where a fencer objected (loudly) to his opponents jacket being too loose. No rule about that though.

[bigdawg2121]

The only thing I can think of as a possible reason for rejecting a "too large" lame would be safety. Certainly not for catching the point. The only problem I can see with excess target is the possibility of tripping on too long of a jacket/cuissard strap. Most questions with lames (size) legality comes from not covering enough target. I would maintain that a too large lame is an aesthetic, rather than a rules infraction. The "fashion police" should have been called.

Just had an incident at a local meet where a fencer objected (loudly) to his opponents jacket being too loose. No rule about that though.

I actually had Dan DeChaine tell me that a lame cannot be too large not too far back. He was called over by a coach that wanted to appeal a lame on my strip.

[Joe biebel]

I actually had Dan DeChaine tell me that a lame cannot be too large not too far back. He was called over by a coach that wanted to appeal a lame on my strip.

Hmmm. A coach appealed? Must have been a team event.

[Stranger In Black]

Speaking of large lames...I recently fenced in a tournament where my left-handed oponent had a lame that was too big for his small frame. The sleeves were enormous. Me being right handed, there were at least two touches which didn't count as on target point because the blade had gone under his arm and through his lame's sleeve and hit either the inside of the lame or just the jacket itself. The ref didn't catch it, but it really got me frustrated. Is there any way I can respectfully ask the ref to watch out for those during a match without getting a card?

[HDG]

Is there any way I can respectfully ask the ref to watch out for those during a match without getting a card?

Yes; respectfully (not obsequiously) ask the ref to watch out for those. No basis for a card; just don't be a di*k about it and you'll be fine

[Joe biebel]

Speaking of large lames...I recently fenced in a tournament where my left-handed oponent had a lame that was too big for his small frame. The sleeves were enormous. Me being right handed, there were at least two touches which didn't count as on target point because the blade had gone under his arm and through his lame's sleeve and hit either the inside of the lame or just the jacket itself. The ref didn't catch it, but it really got me frustrated. Is there any way I can respectfully ask the ref to watch out for those during a match without getting a card?

Well yah. You may have a large or loose lame but, under the condition you state, it does not cover all of the valid target. This should be taken care of by the fencer, or the referee. In your case it was not, so it becomes incumbent upon you to "handle" it. Your pointing it out that it does not cover certain valid target should be enough. Occassionally you will get a ref that does not want to enforce such rules. If this happens, you will need to decide if you want to try and take it beyond the ref.

[Joe biebel]

Also, Since the referee can not over-rule the materiality of the hits, except by penalty, having him "watch for those" is useless. What's he going to say? "Whoops, you got screwed again". The ref canonly over-rule if there is an infraction like covering target, which is why it is important that the equipment regiter all touches correctly made.

[Stranger In Black]

That makes sense. Thanks all.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

My question---

How are you going through his sleeve? shouldn't he have an overglove on?

It's much easier to get the ref to step in on "no overglove"...........

[erooMynohtnA]

My question---

How are you going through his sleeve? shouldn't he have an overglove on?

It's much easier to get the ref to step in on "no overglove"...........

I think you'd have a much harder time trying to make a foilist wear an overglove than you think.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I think you'd have a much harder time trying to make a foilist wear an overglove than you think.

K, so, rereading it foil makes a bit more sense, but reread it, and you can clearly see that there isn't much that is specific about foil......

specifically my problem was the suggestion that the lame had "sleeves".........

[erooMynohtnA]

I know, but it's funnier when I pretend it was easy to understand.

[irishfolker]

I checked SIB's profile, and he's a foilsman. So his blade went in the armhole, which was hanging loose. Sounds like a good case for a lame not fully covering target area.

[bigdawg2121]

Hmmm. A coach appealed? Must have been a team event.

Well to be more precise the coach got the armorer so that his fencer could appeal. Basically the appeal was going to happen (as the coach stood and yelled at his student to ask if the lame was legal) so I was kinda happy that the coach saved me from walking to the armorers table.

[fencerbill]

Can lame jackets be too large, resulting in a rejection/card by a referee
If so where is the rule ?

A child fencer in Canada was prevented in using a lame jacket by an USA referee because it was too large went more than 40 mm below the hip bone. Is there any technical/safety rule that covers this?

Sabre or Foil? Armholes too big sounds like a legitimate beef to me. Might be able to overcome an over large Foil Lame with a stapler. Inside out, staple a line of staples close together along the side seam. Close so it won't catch points. Could shorten it that way also. Easiest to get the right size.

For Sabre, turn the sleeves partly outside in. Rolling them up creates non-conductive surface.

[sabreur]

... just don't be a di*k ....

This is good advice in general.

[HDG]

This is good advice in general.

And easy to follow.