qualifying path question re: sectionals

[fencerchica]

Sorry for the basic question; I started with the USFA handbook and FAQ, then searched threads here, but didn't find anything that addressed it with absolute clarity.

What exactly are the qualification slots that Senior Sectionals generates? Obviously, Div 1-A, for the top 8 or top 25% whichever is greater. And vets qualify to vets nationals by participation in senior sectionals, without a specific finish required. However, what about Div2 and Div3?

I thought that there were Div2 and Div3 qualification spots that came out of sectionals as well, bumped down to the top finishers who had appropriate ratings for Div2/3 and who hadn't yet qualified already. But I'm finding no mention of anything Div2/3 related in connection with sectional events, and discussion of Div2/3 qualification was something I only found in relation to divisional events. So, is it not possible to qualify to Div2/3 through fencing in Senior Sectionals?

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by fencerchica

I thought that there were Div2 and Div3 qualification spots that came out of sectionals as well, bumped down to the top finishers who had appropriate ratings for Div2/3 and who hadn't yet qualified already. But I'm finding no mention of anything Div2/3 related in connection with sectional events, and discussion of Div2/3 qualification was something I only found in relation to divisional events. So, is it not possible to qualify to Div2/3 through fencing in Senior Sectionals?

That's the way it used ot be -- they eliminated the qualification to Div II/III from Sectionals. You can only qualify for Div II/III through your divisional Div II/III qualifier.

[Jay Young]

Yes, the Div 2/3 events at Nationals were getting WAY too big. It's their way of trying to thin the crowds out. Plus, it spurs participation at the Division level.

[oiuyt]

As mentioned above, there are currently no paths for Div II or Div III qualification through Sectionals.

Some historic notes:
For the past couple of seasons Sections has had an indirect path to Div II qualification, in that any C or under who qualified to IA also became automatically qualified to Div II. Any D or under who qualified to Div II automatically picked up Div III qualification. Therefore a D or under fnecer who qualified to IA would also get II and III.

Prior to that there was a more complicated, but direct, qualification path. The top 6 C and under fencers that were not already qualified to Div II (generally through their division qualifying competition) earned Div II slots. Everyone who entered Senior Sectional Championships picked up Div III. I believe these both went away as part of the changes when all of the 30% levels went to 25% and Div III was given a threshold, rather than being warm-body-at-the-qualifier.

Note that qualifying for Div II no longer means one has qualified for Div III. There will be D and under fencers qualified to Div II that are not qualified to Div III this year.

-B

[dberke]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

.
Note that qualifying for Div II no longer means one has qualified for Div III. There will be D and under fencers qualified to Div II that are not qualified to Div III this year.

I think that will be fairly rare - most divisions (such as mine) run a combined Div II/III qualifier, so any D & under fencer that qualified for Div II also got Div III. We just had to count them as one of the Div III qualifiers, unlike last year where they wouldn't take up a Div III slot.

While the new system is easier to manage, I think we once again are seeing the Law of Unintended Consequences kick in. In our section, I'm expecting Sectionals to be fairly lightly attended due to the travel costs. The result of this is that, at least based on the current list of pre-registred fencers, a D & under fencer who may have had a bad day at divisionals and didn't qualify for Div III, could go to sectionals and qualify for Div I-A. I find it to be really strange that it's now possible to qualify for D1A and not III!

Dan

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by dberke

I think that will be fairly rare - most divisions (such as mine) run a combined Div II/III qualifier, so any D & under fencer that qualified for Div II also got Div III. We just had to count them as one of the Div III qualifiers, unlike last year where they wouldn't take up a Div III slot.

You still can qualify for only division 2, it's just really hard.


For example, if the final results had the top four as Ds, then 16 Cs, the fourth D would not qualify, being last in the four person division III tournament out of which three qualify. However, they'd all be in the top 25% of the division 2 tournament.

[oiuyt]

Somewhat easier than that. Merely requires a 13-person tournament with a single weak C-classified fencer (who finishes 5th or lower).

Or a division like NJ which splits the D2 and D3 qualifiers into different tournaments held two weeks apart.

-B

[tkexi991]

Originally Posted by dberke

I think that will be fairly rare - most divisions (such as mine) run a combined Div II/III qualifier, so any D & under fencer that qualified for Div II also got Div III. We just had to count them as one of the Div III qualifiers, unlike last year where they wouldn't take up a Div III slot.


Dan

GA Division holds Div II and Div III seperately. Funnily enough, I qualified for Div2 and earned my D07 (3rd place in a C1 ME event), and got murdered in Div III.

If you have the numbers, holding the events seperately makes a lot of sense. The Div II Men's Epee event was mostly Cs and Ds with a couple Es and no Us. The Div III ME field was much weaker in comparison.

[Rick Shellhouse]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Somewhat easier than that. Merely requires a 13-person tournament with a single weak C-classified fencer (who finishes 5th or lower).

Or a division like NJ which splits the D2 and D3 qualifiers into different tournaments held two weeks apart.

-B

Yup...but I think they ran them in teh wrong order...think the D3 should have been first....


R

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by tkexi991

If you have the numbers, holding the events seperately makes a lot of sense. The Div II Men's Epee event was mostly Cs and Ds with a couple Es and no Us. The Div III ME field was much weaker in comparison.

How does it make sense?

It's the same maximum number of qualifying slots. If some people can only make one event or the other the division losses some. Meanwhile you're chewing up even more time during an already overloaded qualifier-season. The slots might end up spread out a bit more (people like you will earn a D2 but not D3 slot, but I question whether that's a benefit. Is it better to have lots of people making the choice to fly someone for a single event, or fewer people making the choice to fly somewhere for multiple events?

Originally Posted by Rick Shellhouse

Yup...but I think they ran them in teh wrong order...think the D3 should have been first....

Really only makes a difference if someone earns a C at the D2 qualifier, but would have liked to fence D3. None of the six events had someone earning a C (there were 2 updates of C06's) this year.

I'd argue that before the two-week difference comes up that there's at least as strong an argument for merely holding them earlier in the season, say January (note: I'm NOT suggesting doing this, merely that if it makes sense to flip the order to remove the "risk" of a D3 fencer earning a C too early that moving the tournament(s) to January helps reduce that "risk" even more).

Unless there's some other reason that I'm missing...

Run the D3 first and a bunch of the marginal fencers will fail to qualify, might just give up on the D2, and skip it completely. Which then results in fewer D2 qualifiers.

Incidently, anyone know of any division OTHER than New Jersey or Georgia that splits D2 and D3 qualifiers?

-B

[qatet]

Originally Posted by tkexi991

If you have the numbers, holding the events seperately makes a lot of sense. The Div II Men's Epee event was mostly Cs and Ds with a couple Es and no Us. The Div III ME field was much weaker in comparison.

Which implies that people chose to go to one or the other, and implies that the split wasn't very good for those who wanted to get to Div II. If those Es and Us had fenced the Div II qualifier there would have been 12 more people total - 4 more Div II slots overall!

[foildad]

Originally Posted by dberke

While the new system is easier to manage, I think we once again are seeing the Law of Unintended Consequences kick in. In our section, I'm expecting Sectionals to be fairly lightly attended due to the travel costs. The result of this is that, at least based on the current list of pre-registred fencers, a D & under fencer who may have had a bad day at divisionals and didn't qualify for Div III, could go to sectionals and qualify for Div I-A. I find it to be really strange that it's now possible to qualify for D1A and not III!

Dan

Agreed.

There is a corollary Unintended Consequence as well: Sectionals may be even less well attended in far-flung Sections since with no trickle-down there are less potential events for which to qualify. If so, an attempt to boost Divisional attendance (among other things) would end up hurting Sectional attendance.

[flyingfencer]

The concept of getting more participation on the divisional level by limiting Div II and III qualifiers to Divisionals is probably a good idea, but in practice, I can see some problems.

The main problem is very bad refereeing in some of the divisions or some local politics interfering with the impartiality of some of these division referees.

I've not been on the receiving end of this, but I've seen it. Last year, I saw a DE bout between two fencers in divisionals where a bout was being directed by the coach from the club of one of the fencers.

I saw some very obvious bias in the calls. The fencer in question attacked searching for the other fencer's blade, missing the blade entirely with a very hard beat, while the other fencer evaded with a simple disengage. Two lights, and the fencer in question gets the touch. I saw a lot of parry's called for this fencer when the fencer never touched the other attacking fencer's blade. Every counter-attack was given ROW as an attack in prep. The other fencer was only scoring on one light situations. Remarkably, the bout went to 15/14.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Incidently, anyone know of any division OTHER than New Jersey or Georgia that splits D2 and D3 qualifiers?

Goldcoast FL did it this year; it seemed well received. But we're hardly a bellwether.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by HDG

Goldcoast FL did it this year; it seemed well received. But we're hardly a bellwether.

Got a reasonable explanation for WHY?

-B

[HDG]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Got a reasonable explanation for WHY?

-B

DIII fencers wanted to be able to do two events, rather than have their results extrapolated and the organizers were willing to accomodate. Given how few of the people in the DIII events entered the DII events (except sabre), this might not have been a bad idea, but then again, both divisions were tiny across weapon and gender, so the addition of DIII fencers to the DII wouldn't have been enough to yield additional qualifying slot. If they'd been combined, however, we probably would've finished by noon each day…

[swordsen]

I think it makes perfect sense to have a Div II and a Div III qualifying event. If here are two events at nationals there should be two events at the qualifiers. Certainly no one trying to qualify for a Div III slot should have to compete with a C rated fencer to get it.

Holding just one event just does not seem right to me.

[HDG]

I apologize for reviving this thread, but I'm working on the scheduling for our division's qualifiers, and I need to clarify something: If we separate the D2 and D3 qualifying events, do D & under fencers who qualify for D2 still auto-qualify for D3, or is this only when a single event is run? Do qualifications trickle down?

Thanks.

[dberke]

Originally Posted by HDG

I apologize for reviving this thread, but I'm working on the scheduling for our division's qualifiers, and I need to clarify something: If we separate the D2 and D3 qualifying events, do D & under fencers who qualify for D2 still auto-qualify for D3, or is this only when a single event is run? Do qualifications trickle down?

Thanks.

Nope, qualifying for D2 no longer gets you D3 for free (if you're not a C). They removed the "trickle-down" last year. I believe Brad introduced a board motion back in the spring to reinstate it, but it failed to pass.

So, unless they change the rules again this year (which I suppose is possible - don't run your qualifier until after the Feb BoD meeting!) last years' rules will be in effect.

Dan

[KD5MDK]

Your Athlete's Handbook should specify the qualification paths and entry requirements for all USFA National Tournaments.