wealth

[illogick]

fencing is obviously a pretty expensive sport. do you all believe that the wealthier a fencer is, the more likely the better the fencer is, due to better equipment/opportunities/etc?

i seem to be in a pickle, i love fencing, but i'm wealthy enough to fence whenever i want, whether it's club or tournaments etc. anyone else in the same boat as me?

[FoilyDeath]

FEncing is possibly the only sport in the country where one of the best collegeiate leagues is the Ivy League. Apart from possibly polo I would assume:P
So yes, its still a rich spot, but its changing. Give it 15 more years.

[nyacfencing]

fencing is obviously a pretty expensive sport. do you all believe that the wealthier a fencer is, the more likely the better the fencer is, due to better equipment/opportunities/etc?

i seem to be in a pickle, i love fencing, but i'm wealthy enough to fence whenever i want, whether it's club or tournaments etc. anyone else in the same boat as me?

I am not so sure... a lot of the top US fencers, especially those training for a possible Olympic spot, as some of the poorest people I know. HOWEVER, most of them did go to Ivy league schools and are poor by choice, electing to forgo work for athletic achievement. There is no doubt they likely will do well for themselves someday, so even though they are not presently wealthy, they have solid opportunities ahead.

[Zilverzmurfen]

fencing is obviously a pretty expensive sport. do you all believe that the wealthier a fencer is, the more likely the better the fencer is, due to better equipment/opportunities/etc?

i seem to be in a pickle, i love fencing, but i'm wealthy enough to fence whenever i want, whether it's club or tournaments etc. anyone else in the same boat as me?

I wouldn't say it's a particularly expensive sport, but possibly conditions are different in the US.

However, beeing wealthy -- or at least reasonably well off -- gives you oppurtunities to go to competitions that fencers less well off cannot. Thus he/she will gain experience and routine.

Equipment are just means of safety and will have no effect on how well a person fences. For that there's always those other factors like training oppurtunities, coaches and -- oh yeah -- talent and natural ability for the sport.


Our swedish épéeist Peter Vanky once said "I know I'm not a fencing talent, I'm just stupid enough to think that training dead hard will get you somewhere". Peter got somewhere; he took silver in the World Championships both 1998 and 1999.

[Durando]

fencing is obviously a pretty expensive sport. do you all believe that the wealthier a fencer is, the more likely the better the fencer is, due to better equipment/opportunities/etc?

i seem to be in a pickle, i love fencing, but i'm wealthy enough to fence whenever i want, whether it's club or tournaments etc. anyone else in the same boat as me?

It's my experience that these fencers are lazier. They run around looking for the bestest coaches evah with the secretest of secrets. Usually, they get bored after a while and go off and ride horsies. Results require sacrifice and focus. Making sacrifices is a habit wholly absent in the rich people I know. Focus is difficult as well because one can always **** off and do something else when fancy decides.

[irishfolker]

I think a greater criterion is time, rather than money. All the money and coaching in the world won't make you a good fencer if you don't have the time to spend training, conditioning, bouting, etc.

[tbryan]

fencing is obviously a pretty expensive sport. do you all believe that the wealthier a fencer is, the more likely the better the fencer is, due to better equipment/opportunities/etc?

What level are you talking about? And what amount of wealth?

First, I'll say that I have very little experience with fencers who are truly poor. If you have trouble putting food on the table and paying rent, then fencing is very expensive. Compare it to something like soccer or basketball where you can buy a ball and some shoes and practice in a lot of public spaces. Perhaps someone else has more experience with fencers in that kind of demographic.

Once we get beyond that, I would answer no, especially not among beginners. At that stage, a willingness to practice and work hard, the ability to focus, a certain type of personality or way of thinking, and a love of the sport all seem to help. It also helps if you have some natural talent for fencing, but if you've got the other things I mentioned, you can often overcome the lack of natural talent over time.

If you're talking about someone who primarily competes locally, especially among beginners, I don't think money is really a determining factor at all. Given the same fencer, more money may make things easier (more private lessons, more tournaments, etc.). On the other hand, if I had two fencers start in the class, money would be waaaaay down the list on factors that would determine how far I'd expect them to go. Like Durando says, in general, the person who can throw money at fencing is more likely to try it and hang around for a while without putting in the effort. So, for example, when he hits a plateau in his training, he may just get frustrated and leave. The person who is scraping money together to afford fencing class or lessons has already decided to make sacrifices just to fence. He probably had to work harder to get to his first plateau. When he gets to that plateau, he already knows how to work, and he feels that he has more invested, so perhaps he's less likely to leave.

Now, depending on where you live, it may be difficult to get beyond at a certain level without spending a certain amount of money. Unless you have really strong fencing locally, you'll need to travel to get to stronger competitions. And if you make it to the stage where you're trying to earn national points, you'll probably need to fly to a few competitions a year to get to the national events where you can do that. So few fencers make it to that point that I wouldn't worry too much about it now if you're just getting started.

Same thing with training. If you have a choice of clubs nearby, and the better club is more expensive, finances may keep you at a weaker club. You may find that you get less out of the same amount of effort if you're at a club where the bouting is weaker or the coaching is sub-standard. Like I said above, all this just means that the *same person* is more likely to go farther with more money available. He has more options, and his path becomes easier at certain stages. On the other hand, the poorer fencer learns how to work hard earlier. So, if he sticks with it and finds the right opportunities, he's more likely to continue to progress because he's already learned some lessons about sacrifice and hard work that other fencers don't encounter until later.

You or your family may also want to talk to your fencing club's owner about your situtation. Some clubs will work out reduced fees or let you work off some of your fees by cleaning the club, doing paperwork for them, etc. Some clubs might also have some sort of sponsorship for competitors who cannot afford travel to tournaments. Your parents (if you're young) or you (if you're not) could also talk to the other fencers discreetly. Or perhaps your coach will do it for you. For example, if you cannot afford a fencing trip, someone else may permit you to travel with them without charging you a full share of the travel and hotel expenses. Like I said, things become harder, but there's no reason to think that the wealthier club members will necessarily end up going further.

[FoilyDeath]

Sorry, but those of you saying that fencing is not an expensive sport to compete at at a high level are are kidding yourselves....It might only fence foil, but I know I spend an absolute friggin fortune on blades, kit, and other junk that I swear I shouldn't be needing, but you end up needing anyway. If your going to have 5 working blades, training and competition kit, plus paying your way to satellites etc. your really not going to be receiving benefits, not to mention the stupid amount of money you have to spend to compete and get to that level in the first place.

[Sciurus-Rex]

Anyone who doesn't believe money makes *everything* easier has never been at the bottom looking up.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Anyone who doesn't believe money makes *everything* easier has never been at the bottom looking up.

Just because something is easier doesn't make it more likely.

If you don't do anything at college other than go to class, you have LOTS of time to devote to homework. In my experience, those people usually just spend a lot of time watching tv and drinking. The people doing work-study or sports (or both) have a lot less time. Studies have been done that show that (at least at Smith), people on sports teams have a higher GPA than those who don't. The lack of free time makes you have to budget better the time you have.

On the other hand, the amount someone works makes a difference. I work 9 hours a week, which isn't bad at all. other people working more like 18 hours (or more) face more trade-offs.....

[Durando]

Anyone who doesn't believe money makes *everything* easier has never been at the bottom looking up.

Sorry, but those of you saying that fencing is not an expensive sport to compete at at a high level

Nobody, at least in this thread, has said this. Remember where we began? Let me remind you two: a rich kid who is at the top looking down and wondering if his situation might somehow be an advantage.

SR: Of course money helps. But as someone else said upthread, time is just as important.

FD: Who mentioned high-level training?

It's worth continuing this thread for two reasons. 1) Participation in the West, and especially the U.S., is somewhat and lametably limited by the sport's elitist image (why do you think the Soviets paid so much attention to it?); 2) It's worth, I guess, discussing how national (or regional?) sports federations help a sport grow.

It's no secret that American olympic and WC success is limited by the exigencies of how employment works in the States. Which is somewhat true in Western Europe. But then the high level of the sport interests me less as a wannabe coach. It is the vast middle which makes a country strong.

I would guess in Sweden, as in France, you can join a club at a moderate annual fee and have most of your equipment rented to you, etc. I might add that the system allows for easier employment of MdAs and therefore consistency in teaching. Which leads to consistency in results, etc.

[jeff]

Of course money makes it easier, and it certainly isn't only about elite levels

If you have money, you can afford lessons and equipment, travel to competitions, and spend time training instead of working. Money makes it possible for HS or college students to take private lessons instead of just getting whatever attention you can get from the school's coach (who may or may not be of the calibre you need, and has to divide his/her time among many), and you can fence or work out instead of doing after-school jobs.

When I was in HS, there was a big skills divide between the kids who could afford private lessons, lots of them, and those who could only learn from team practices, and then go to their after school work - believe me, it was keenly felt. In the burbs where I am, kids have to have wheels, or parents with wheels, to take them to competitions and practices. All of these are out of range of people counting every dollar.

[contre-Sixte]

Per year cost of fencing for me (highly competitive VET fencer):

Blades: $300.00
Masks: $100.00 (generally last 2 yrs)
Lame: $100.00
Shoes: $100.00
Jacket: $40.00 (last 3 yrs)
Knickers: $40.00 (last 3 yrs)
Gloves: $30.00 (last 2 yrs)
Club fee: $500.00
25 Lessons: $750.00
Entry fees -local: $200.00
Entry fees - NAC: $240.00
Entry fees - Reg: $200.00
Hotel/Airfare: $1500.00
Gadgets,T-shirts,etc.: $100.00
Stuff I forgot: $200.00

~ $4700.00

I doubt any truly poor individuals spend $4700 a year on their hobby (or vice). But many people on the lower end of middle class do. I think time is more of a factor on who does well than money... and the two are not connected in a consistent way. Some rich individuals are constantly traveling without a spare moment; some struggling teachers have months of free time and open schedules every afternoon. It's all about commitment to the sport.

[Morion]

I know they are subsidized but I would like to point out that Peter Westbrook has produced some very high rated fencers drawn from some of the poorest kids in the country.

[contre-Sixte]

I know they are subsidized but I would like to point out that Peter Westbrook has produced some very high rated fencers drawn from some of the poorest kids in the country.

Highly subsidized. It's a great program.

[Angwilwileth]

On the other hand, the poorer fencer learns how to work hard earlier. So, if he sticks with it and finds the right opportunities, he's more likely to continue to progress because he's already learned some lessons about sacrifice and hard work that other fencers don't encounter until later.

This was really encouraging to hear for my particular situation. Thanks.

[bousquet]

Fencing may be a sport that the wealthy may be attracted to but it is not an expensive sport.

My other sport is rimfire benchrest rifle shooting. Now that is an expensive sport.

Rifle and scope - $3,000 to $5,000
Rifle rest - $300 to $850
Ammo - The average shooter will spend $1,500 to $3,000 per year.
Entry fees - $20 to $25 per match averaging 20 - 25 matches per year.
Wind flags - $300
Travelling costs vary.

This game is usually done by old retired guys and working class types.

[tkexi991]

Fencing may be a sport that the wealthy may be attracted to but it is not an expensive sport.

My other sport is rimfire benchrest rifle shooting. Now that is an expensive sport.

Rifle and scope - $3,000 to $5,000
Rifle rest - $300 to $850
Ammo - The average shooter will spend $1,500 to $3,000 per year.
Entry fees - $20 to $25 per match averaging 20 - 25 matches per year.
Wind flags - $300
Travelling costs vary.

This game is usually done by old retired guys and working class types.

That's a great point. Fencing is expensive, but so are a lot of other sports. Competitive shooting, high level tennis, downhill skiing, equestrian, and golf can all be very expensive. At a tournament a couple weeks ago, one guy mentioned that a Leon Paul FIE uniform costs as much as he makes in a week. Of course, a good pair of Ski boots cost that much or more.

Yes fencing is expensive. The real question should be "is it worth it?" For me, absolutely.

[Sciurus-Rex]

Of course money helps. But as someone else said upthread, time is just as important.

Ya think so? Amazing. I hadn't thought of that possibility.

Color me embarrased for not considering that money can actually buy time ... in the sense that you're not working your @$$ off for minimum wage to fix a junker broken car and beg your boss for a couple of extra hours to drive out of town to a tournament, or maybe doing extra jobs around the club to compensate for your coaching fees, or work-study at school to pay for tuition instead of hanging out with your pals at the salle while they grab a few extra training bouts. ... In THAT sense -- kinda sorta, if you squeeze your eyes shut real tight -- you can almost imagine that wealth makes it easier to arrange time for fencing.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[piste off]

A lot of it depends on your goal. If you just want to fence and have fun, it does not have to be that expensive. But, that depends on your particulars.

Remember, not everyone is that well off. Some folks live pay-check to paycheck and a lot are in debt to one degree or another.

I've known some fencers that were dirt poor. I've known some that choose to be dirt poor to advance their fencing career (some of these knew this would be a temporary sacrifice).

That said, some of the budgets for a world-class fencer that I have heard are staggering. That does not even include opportunity costs, such as taking a job that makes it easy to have a fencing life.

To that last point, the guy who is the best tiddly-winker in the world probably does it 6 days a week for 5 hours a day. That takes time, sacrifice and a life that allows that investment.

Rick