USFA Membership and Rating Data - data

[seak]

At the local level it's an allowable OPTION to use National Points as part of the seeding. It is NOT required. And I'm not sure when the last time I was in a non-NAC that took my national ranking into account.

Last time I recall it even coming up was at the '06 CBO where I complained (complained, had fun poking at the tournament organizers while they were trying to set up and run a rather large event. Tomayto, Tomahto.) that it WASN'T used, despite MxE using rankings in their seeding. Granted it didn't matter, I was already the 1 seed (due to coming out on top of the random lot-draw amongst the 3 A2005's present), but still...

-B

Actually it was used, knowing you had national points, we randomized for ratings in fencingtime and then made sure that you were top seed, due to national points. It just didn't print out your national points on the seeding list that we posted.

[oiuyt]

Actually it was used, knowing you had national points, we randomized for ratings in fencingtime and then made sure that you were top seed, due to national points. It just didn't print out your national points on the seeding list that we posted.

Not according to the discussion that you and I had at the time.... :)

I seem to recall you being mock-exasperated at me for my mock-complaint regarding a moot point.

-B

[Inquartata]

So that conversation attained a speed of Mock 2?

[CvilleFencer]

Thanks again for the Data JEC! I really appreciate it.

[JEC]

Need to work on my saber to get a C07 B05 A06.

Doesn't the year earned count in some way in this ranking?

I grouped them by letter down (-1, -2, and -3) from "triple A". Certainly, you could add points based on year earned to dissociate them in among those 3 groups. I also hope that I did not miss any body in the -3 group.

[JEC]

Thanks again for the Data JEC! I really appreciate it.

You are very welcome. I still need to do (Foil + Saber, Epee + Saber, and more analysis in triple ratings). I thing that struck me is that is seems to me that there are more triple ratings among veterans than among other age categories, but I need to prove that first.

[oiuyt]

Anyone who had an A (or new B) in 1999 and is a member still has classifications in all three weapons (C99->D03, D99->E03, C95->D99->E03). Considerably more vet fencers which those classifications than juniors.

And that's independent of frequency of multi-weapon competition.

-B

[CvilleFencer]

Anyone who had an A (or new B) in 1999 and is a member still has classifications in all three weapons (C99->D03, D99->E03, C95->D99->E03). Considerably more vet fencers which those classifications than juniors.

And that's independent of frequency of multi-weapon competition.

-B

Most excellent point. I had completely forgotten about that!

[JEC]

Anyone who had an A (or new B) in 1999 and is a member still has classifications in all three weapons (C99->D03, D99->E03, C95->D99->E03). Considerably more vet fencers which those classifications than juniors.

And that's independent of frequency of multi-weapon competition.

-B

The effect will water down over time unless the other letters are renewed. Am I correct that no current D04 or higher has been awarded by this mechanism? If so, then you can still compare Veteran vs other age-groups by considering triple ratings above D04. We can monitor the effect over the following years if the USFA database is maintained.

[oiuyt]

The effect will water down over time unless the other letters are renewed. Am I correct that no current D04 or higher has been awarded by this mechanism? If so, then you can still compare Veteran vs other age-groups by considering triple ratings above D04. We can monitor the effect over the following years if the USFA database is maintained.

Yes, and yes. I was merely pointing out a potential systematic bias if the former policy of courtesy ratings wasn't taken into account. This affects evaluation of three-weapon vets vs. juniors, anything looking at multi-weapon fencers as a whole, etc.

And, as shown by CVille's post, while many people are aware of the situation, it can easily be overlooked when playing with current data. Especially given that we're talking about lingering effects of a policy that's been gone for nearly eight years now.

-B

[KD5MDK]

It isn't necessarily indicative of ratings for fencers as a whole, either, as the odds that an A 8 years ago is a veteran now are probably not too substantially higher than that they are now 30, having earned the A at 22 or something.

[JEC]

It isn't necessarily indicative of ratings for fencers as a whole, either, as the odds that an A 8 years ago is a veteran now are probably not too substantially higher than that they are now 30, having earned the A at 22 or something.

Keep in mind, Andrew, that VET status start at 40. (32 --> now 40) vs (16 --> now 24)

[KD5MDK]

Right, but high level success has tended towards the younger fencers in my experience, at least recently. Don't know if that was the case back then, but when 39/60 of the current senior MF points list are juniors, 26/56 of sabre and , if that was the proportion back then, there will be a lot fewer Vet As from then than non-Vet As.
None of the current MS points list will be Veterans in 8 years.

[KD5MDK]

I realize I'm combining "points list" and "A rated" here, but it's the easiest source of elite athlete age information, and my understanding is that it was much harder to earn an A back then, so I'm assuming fewer non-elite athletes did it.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

None of the current MS points list will be Veterans in 8 years.

But Brad will almost be.

{I think, I'm bad with calculating ages.......}

[oiuyt]

But Brad will almost be.

{I think, I'm bad with calculating ages.......}

No, you're right, I'll be 39 in 8 years.

While many A's are in the under 30 crowd, I would argue that most of the people that are still members 8 years after earning a A are the type of fencer that would/could earn a high classification later in life. Most of the 20-year-old-A's won't be USFA members when they're 28. Many (most?) of the 34-year-old-A's will be members when they're 42.

-B

[KD5MDK]

But Brad will almost be.

{I think, I'm bad with calculating ages.......}

I noticed that. I wonder how it feels to be the old fogey of the Senior MS NRPS.

[JEC]

No, you're right, I'll be 39 in 8 years.

While many A's are in the under 30 crowd, I would argue that most of the people that are still members 8 years after earning a A are the type of fencer that would/could earn a high classification later in life. Most of the 20-year-old-A's won't be USFA members when they're 28. Many (most?) of the 34-year-old-A's will be members when they're 42.

-B

Brad,
This ia an excellent example of how the membership rating data could be useful to the BOD. As you know from being a college coach, USFA loses quite a few fencers at that point. Targeted programs to help keep that age group interested in fencing, perhaps, while fencing less often are needed. The "rated" fencers of that age are likely to be more interested in fencing and those who were not rated. That is the peak of athletic performance, and not earning "a rating" (Not A-rating but any rating) suggest a less serious interest or a tremendous lack of opportunity (i.e.: Hawaii, Alaska, or $ reasons). Nevertheless, targeting rated fencers of that age with some kind of discounts as the parents no longer pay for fencing stuff and other priorities take over is critical. Another example would be to promote heavily the supporting life membership, it makes an increadible sense for 18 year-old who are serious in fencing. They can convince their parents into it. My 15-year old son is already SL-5.
JEC

[JEC]

I noticed that. I wonder how it feels to be the old fogey of the Senior MS NRPS.

For Senior ME, you could ask John Moreau in your neighborhood. In 2003, he was the national champion at the fresh age of 52. Walter Dragonetti is just 50. Dick Richards is 51. Alexander Abend currently #7 is 42. Tausig and Exum will be veterans in 4 years.

[fencerbill]

Anyone who had an A (or new B) in 1999 and is a member still has classifications in all three weapons (C99->D03, D99->E03, C95->D99->E03). Considerably more vet fencers which those classifications than juniors.

And that's independent of frequency of multi-weapon competition.

-B

For example, I am sure Ariana Klinkov enjoys have a D04 in Foil and Epee.