Is there a problem with crushing your opponent utterly

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

I've seen this a lot and its happen to me......... well a lot basically getting crushed to the point that you couldnt do anything toi stop the opponents touches from happening, you know those bouts that come out 15-1,15-2,15-0,15-5. Is there a point where a fencer should stop and let the opponent idk have some free ones. Because i have also crushed people and they seem to get really irritated(some even hate me for life.......... i will not disclose names) its like whenever they fence i beta them like bad. I was thinking should i or other fencers like give them a fighting chance. i say this because when ive been crushed i never got irritated at the person just at myself for letting it happen and i just thought it will never happen again with the same guy next time i face him ill beat him. but idk people have different views than me

[Coldfire]

It depends really. Are you fencing someone a lot younger than you like a teenager? If so you dont want to comppletely rip them apart as that can be really discouraging. Maybe ease up a bit. Dont give away touches but try different things and have a bit more fun. It also depends on the kind of bout. If its a practice bout you shouldnt be trying to win anyway but just practicing stuff. If its a competition then yes try to win but theres no need to go all out against someone who you completely outclass. If they get irritated its their problem to at least learn from the bout regardless of how they did. If all they can think of in terms of their fencing is winning and losing they have a lot to learn. As for yourself getting irritated at losing badly: it happens. Let it go. As long as you learned something from that bout it wasnt completely worthless. Yeah sometimes you lose a bout against someone you always beat but thats the way it goes. Just learn and try harder next time.

[oiuyt]

You should never give up free touches.

Fencing with less than 100% of a game can be reasonable, especially if the purpose is to optimize your expected performance for the day.

If I'm fencing a weak fencer I'll use considerably less than my full game. For a couple of reasons. First, because overly complicating things is more likely to cost touches than earn them. Secondly, because it's not necessary to do anything complicated when simple, easy actions work.

If I can do two things -- say accelarated attack for an "attack-counterattack" call off the "Fence!" command, and step in, step out for an "attack no, riposte (or "attack arrives" or "counterattack arrives")" call -- both of which work, that's likely to be all that you'll see happen in that bout. If it gets to 12-0 doing that, the last three touches will be the same thing. I'm not going to "accidently" mess up one of the actions to make a final score of 15-1. I'm also not going to try to whip out my jump-2 parry-riposte for the 15th touch.

Even moreso, in a bout where I can make the above happen, that's what I'll do. I won't fence differently to make an artificially close score (15-8, or whatever).

What I'll be doing will be simple and well executed. If my opponent shows that s/he requires more complexity, I'll try to add complexity while maintaining strong, clean execution. There's nothing showboaty about this. It's not about crushing the will of an opponent, or demonstrating how awesome I am. It's about getting out there, doing a job, doing it well, and moving on to the next bout.

Use an ability gap as an opportunity to humilate someone and it's reasonable that people will think you're being a d*ck. Go out there and just outfence someone with clean actions -- especially simple actions where you're winning by out-executing your opponent -- and, while they can say "wow, he really crushed him", it's hard to fault the manner in which you did so. You're simply a better fencer on that day. Which, after all, is one of the reasons why we compete.

-B

[oiuyt]

It depends really. Are you fencing someone a lot younger than you like a teenager?

Assume for a minute that we're talking about a DE bout in an open tournament. I will try to fence at the same level and in the same way (pending strategic and tactical choices based on specific physical/mental match-ups) against a 14-year-old opponent with 10 months of experience as I would against a 37-year-old of the same ability.

As mentioned above, it'll likely be lots of simple, clean actions, done (hopefully) at near optimal times and executed as well as I can. If doing that results in a 15-1 score, so be it.

The next time we fence hopefully s/he will be a bit stronger, will pull a couple more nice actions, and the score will be 15-4.

Artificially giving touches to someone hampers their longterm development. I will not misexecute to allow an opponent to hit me. If s/he does something right, s/he might get the touch. And s/he'll have earned it and deserve it. If s/he doesn't, s/he simply won't score (assuming, of course, this is an opponent at a level where I'm under little enough pressure that I don't commit unforced errors). This creates an environment where the scores might be blowouts, but at least the defeated fencer KNOWS when his/her actions are correct, rather than being taught that a poorly done action can be considered good.

-B

[AndrewH]

You shouldn't give up touches but if i'm about to win 15-0 or 15-1 or something like that, I'll usually throw a few freebies out there.

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

It depends really. Are you fencing someone a lot younger than you like a teenager? If so you dont want to comppletely rip them apart as that can be really discouraging. Maybe ease up a bit. Dont give away touches but try different things and have a bit more fun. It also depends on the kind of bout. If its a practice bout you shouldnt be trying to win anyway but just practicing stuff. If its a competition then yes try to win but theres no need to go all out against someone who you completely outclass. If they get irritated its their problem to at least learn from the bout regardless of how they did. If all they can think of in terms of their fencing is winning and losing they have a lot to learn. As for yourself getting irritated at losing badly: it happens. Let it go. As long as you learned something from that bout it wasnt completely worthless. Yeah sometimes you lose a bout against someone you always beat but thats the way it goes. Just learn and try harder next time.

but isnt it true that nowadays people know when your trying things on them and they get really pissed off becasue you basically made a fool of them with moves you were just trying out so its kinda like a catch 22 or a doublesided sword either way you lose. If you crush the fencer with normal skills they get mad and if you crush the fencer with skills that you are trying out or skills that they know are simple they get mad at you for making them look like an a*s

[pokey]

Speaking as someone who is more likely to be on the receiving end of a 15-0/5 DE than the giving end, personally I don't really appreciate the free touches that the better fencer may be "gracious" enough to throw my way. For one, I'm still the loser, whether it's 15-13 or 15-0. Oiuyt has it exactly right. By throwing me freebies, you hamper my development. I start to think this sloppy action I just did works, and not only does it work, it worked on a higher rated fencer that cleaned my clock.

A low seed clawing their way up the table knows that they're facing a uphill battle that they're likely to lose eventually. I get more satisfaction from knowing that even though I lost 15-2, those two touches I scored on you were deserved touches.

Oiuyt also has it right on imho about the ability gap. It's one thing to lose big to a technically superior fencer. That's fine, that's life. It's another thing to be humiliated by them on the piste with them being cocky/showboating to the tune of "and for my next trick, I'm going to score on his/her chest from behind my back under my legs in a split jump."

As for the ego thing, I suppose it might be different for a younger fencer. My personal view of it is that everyone should get used to disappointment. There's always someone out there better than you, and if you're going to get discouraged every time you get blanked out, you won't be in this sport very long.

You want to be a class act? Blow me out 15-0 and then tell me as we're shaking hands where I went wrong.

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

Speaking as someone who is more likely to be on the receiving end of a 15-0/5 DE than the giving end, personally I don't really appreciate the free touches that the better fencer may be "gracious" enough to throw my way. For one, I'm still the loser, whether it's 15-13 or 15-0. Oiuyt has it exactly right. By throwing me freebies, you hamper my development. I start to think this sloppy action I just did works, and not only does it work, it worked on a higher rated fencer that cleaned my clock.

A low seed clawing their way up the table knows that they're facing a uphill battle that they're likely to lose eventually. I get more satisfaction from knowing that even though I lost 15-2, those two touches I scored on you were deserved touches.

Oiuyt also has it right on imho about the ability gap. It's one thing to lose big to a technically superior fencer. That's fine, that's life. It's another thing to be humiliated by them on the piste with them being cocky/showboating to the tune of "and for my next trick, I'm going to score on his/her chest from behind my back under my legs in a split jump."

As for the ego thing, I suppose it might be different for a younger fencer. My personal view of it is that everyone should get used to disappointment. There's always someone out there better than you, and if you're going to get discouraged every time you get blanked out, you won't be in this sport very long.

You want to be a class act? Blow me out 15-0 and then tell me as we're shaking hands where I went wrong.

i wish the people i fenced thought the same way

[Coldfire]

but isnt it true that nowadays people know when your trying things on them and they get really pissed off becasue you basically made a fool of them with moves you were just trying out so its kinda like a catch 22 or a doublesided sword either way you lose. If you crush the fencer with normal skills they get mad and if you crush the fencer with skills that you are trying out or skills that they know are simple they get mad at you for making them look like an a*s

When I said try different things I didn't mean go for touches that look flashy or humiliate them. Honestly if a fencer gets mad because you beat them the only person they have to blame is themself for letting it happen. I know how it is to be one of those people that get upset when they lose but I've moved on and became a better fencer because of it. It took me seeing a teammate get really p/o at a meet to realize how useless it is to get like that. I separated myself from juding myself by results and have looked at my improvement over time. Hoepfully whoever you are fencing will realize this eventually. One bout doesn't matter much. There will be more.

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

Well actually i found it more to happen with the experienced fencers who think they're the sh*t. I would beat them because when i first started fencing for some reason i would beat the high level guys and lose to the people my skill level and the high level fencers would hate me so much saying things like who let the U in the finals and one director even said that my fencing soOO bad but i'd win. he's just lucky my brother told me he said that after the tournament and there was no way to cause physical harm to him.

[Aims]

I personally would rather be beaten 15-0 than have a touch given to me. I hate it when people give away touches for the same reasons mentioned above as well as the fact that it is an insult to me. Being rather new to the sport, I have had better fencers give a touch to me but after the bout, when I wrote in my fencing journal, I wrote down the score subtracting the given touch because I didn't earn it. Even so when I practice with people below my skill level I find myself doing the same thing to them because I just feel bad. I don't think that you should ever [I]try[I] to crush your opponent into oblivion, but if you are better than them than naturally you will beat them and hopefully they will learn from the experience.

[eac]

Probably your inaccuracy in writing is much more irritating than your accuracy on the strip.

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

Probably your inaccuracy in writing is much more irritating than your accuracy on the strip.

who was that aimed at?

[erooMynohtnA]

That you even have to ask is sort of a major lol-factor.

[peet]

Probably your inaccuracy in writing is much more irritating than your accuracy on the strip.

Based on this and this, I'm thinking that there might be an english-as-a-second-language thing going on here.


But that's just a guess. I don't know the poster personally.

-p

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

That you even have to ask is sort of a major lol-factor.

dont try to make a mime lol-factor will never catch on whatever it is. Plus if your joke is aimed at me it was pretty weak. Just because i dont spell check my post doesnt mean anything and if your pointing it out your a real loser

[LUDICROUS]

It is not proper fencing if you are not living to hear the lamentations of their womenfolk and the crying of their children after you have slaughtered their menfolk on the piste.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

It is not proper fencing if you are not living to hear the lamentations of their womenfolk and the crying of their children after you have slaughtered their menfolk on the piste.

What if I'm living to hear the lamentations of their menfolk after I've slaughtered the womenfolk?

[physicspackage]

You should never give up free touches.

Fencing with less than 100% of a game can be reasonable, especially if the purpose is to optimize your expected performance for the day.

Agreed. My daughter was fencing in her first international tournament this past January and was behind in one of her DE bouts something like 11-5 after the first period. At the beginning of the second period the German girl she was fencing did not give up and did not give any touches, but my daughter changed her tactics and got 6 straight points to tie it up going into the third period. She ended up losing by one, but if her opponent had decided to give any points it would have cost her the match. It was also a good lesson for us, always finish strong. They can catch up!

[qatet]

dont try to make a mime lol-factor will never catch on whatever it is. Plus if your joke is aimed at me it was pretty weak. Just because i dont spell check my post doesnt mean anything and if your pointing it out your a real loser

Well, it's kinda like the kids who come along and post in yellow font or all caps to express their individual voice. I read things quickly. If it doesn't scan, I tend to skip it. I'm relatively certain that many others do, too, so if you want your posts read, make it look like you put some thought into them. If you don't care if people read you, well, don't worry about it.

That said, I crush my opponents when I can. But even in that, often the kids are my students, and I will try to use the bout to get them to do things that we've been working on (finishing the attack, getting the counter-parry instead of remising, etc.) and I'll try to not punish them if they do the action correctly.

I've been caught several times when I don't try to crush my opponent. I'll start warming things up for the next bout - practicing things from drill and lessons - and suddenly I've lost. Gah. It doesn't happen often, but often enough that I try to guard against it.