Zivkovic grips: Suggestions

[Eejit]

Howdy,

I currently fence foil using a medium Absolute visconti grip and I'm finding that while it's comfortable enough, I feel that I could be getting a lot more out of my grip. Yes, I've tried fooling around with Uhlmann, etc., but I've always eyed the Zivkovic grips with interest.

To F.net members: Do you reccomend Zivkovic grips? If so, which one do you personally use and why do you use it? Which grip would you recommend to a foil fencer comfortable with a medium visconti?

Thanks in advance for any advice. I'm going to be getting my hands on these at the next NAC and just wanted to get a rough idea of what I might be getting into before I go. Thanks again!

[HDG]

I predict you are about to be bombarded by anti-Zivkovic screeds and admonitions to use the search function…

[Zilverzmurfen]

I'd recommend any grip that fits your hand.

[fatfencer]

Put your fingers in exactly the right place to do all actions from your wrist.

By and large I think the best grips out there are the ones that make the actions you do the most comfortable. For me they WOULD be the Schermasports but at 30 dollars a grip I use extremely modified Russians and a wrist strap for extra support.

Ziv's are comfortable though. I have 4. I want to mount one on the shifter of my corvette.

FF

[Smyles]

Try:
Here
or
Here
or
Here
or
Last but definitely not least HERE!

[yeoldearmourer]

[ I use extremely modified Russians and a wrist strap for extra support.

Ziv's are comfortable though. I have 4. I want to mount one on the shifter of my corvette.

FF[/QUOTE]
Wrist strap are not legal for a pistol grip only the french and Itailian grip

[IHateMrPotatohead]

I like the Zivs. I use a ZII for my epees.

[Rick Shellhouse]

Ummm lets see...

I use a B on my epee ...My wife uses a BII or K on hers..She uses a K on her foil



R

[Gav]

My opinion remains the same - anyone who gets obsessed with the names of grips, or who makes them (or whatever ...) needs to get down the gym and actually fence.

Your time will be better spent learning good technique.

[Rick Shellhouse]

My opinion remains the same - anyone who gets obsessed with the names of grips, or who makes them (or whatever ...) needs to get down the gym and actually fence.

Your time will be better spent learning good technique.

Gav..bud...

Id agree with you but the nuances of using a zivkovic vs a normal pistol grip does change technique....quite a bit


:-)

R

[JayhawkPawn]

My opinion remains the same - anyone who gets obsessed with the names of grips, or who makes them (or whatever ...) needs to get down the gym and actually fence.

Your time will be better spent learning good technique.

Is there a point to this post besides being mean? The person asked a legitamate question and got a response of: LEARN TO FENCE BETTER, NOOB.

Find a grip that fits your hand, plain and simple. If you live in Jersey, you're in luck, as Rick can show you like 45840583 different ones, if youre in Kansas, you just have to spend the cash and figure out which one works.

Also of note, the Zivkovic people are cool, and when I ordered nine of them, they allowed me to send back the ones I despised.

[fencerbill]

[ I use extremely modified Russians and a wrist strap for extra support.

Ziv's are comfortable though. I have 4. I want to mount one on the shifter of my corvette.

FF

Wrist strap are not legal for a pistol grip only the french and Itailian grip[/QUOTE]

Please quote the rule that makes wrist straps not legal.

[Gav]

Is there a point to this post besides being mean? The person asked a legitamate question and got a response of: LEARN TO FENCE BETTER, NOOB.

Find a grip that fits your hand, plain and simple. If you live in Jersey, you're in luck, as Rick can show you like 45840583 different ones, if youre in Kansas, you just have to spend the cash and figure out which one works.

Also of note, the Zivkovic people are cool, and when I ordered nine of them, they allowed me to send back the ones I despised.

It's the same point I make every time I see this question coming up. I feel that it's important that, if you are inexperienced*, that at least one person is willing to point out that you should get to the gym and work on technique. Wasting your time trying out a billion different grips does nothing but distract you from learning basics. If you pick up a zivcovic and it works for you - cool; otherwise I feel you're wasting your time worrying.

It seems really simple to me. Talk to the fencers around you, discuss your options with your coach, learn to fence. Give various grips a go - if you wish (though I wouldn't part with cash till I was sure) - if you find one works and you feel comfortable then use it. However I would hesitate to wander off the beaten path to soon. If you feel you want to try a different grip - give it a go (and good luck) - but don't worry about it. Learning to actually fence is far more important than worrying about the grip.

Having a bunch of anonymous people "yaying and naying" various grips does nothing more than confuse beginners (or noobs - as you call them).

* and it seems to be only inexperienced people that ask this question.

[Gav]

Please quote the rule that makes wrist straps not legal.

There is a relevent thread on this which can be found here.

People seem to get confused when they discuss the difference between a martingale and a wrist strap.

[CvilleFencer]

I'm with Gav on this one. All to many fencers spend way to much time chasing the "ultimate" sword/grip combo. As long as you are holding your grip correctly (talk to your coach for what is "correct" for your style) and they blade is not unsafe you would be better served spending time/money practicing and taking lessons. There is not grip or blade that will turn you from a U to an A overnight. Otherwise everyone would just use those.

At best, once you know what you are doing a good blade/grip combo that suits your preferences and style (once you have a style/game other than Noob whackumup) will mean the difference on a couple of touches a bout. A good fencer can take a piece of rebar with a Hurst shifter for a grip and beat a not good fencer. Good fencer vs. equal or better fencer the optimal grip/blade combo can potentially make a difference in a few touches if for no other reason than the fencer thinks it does But for newish fencers, use what your coach suggests and spend your time and effort into learning to fence.

My general advice is this. Stick with an Italian or Belgian grip at first. Find one that is comfortable in the hand and then go down one size. Make sure you are using your fingers and not your wrist or whole hand. The grip should be controlled with the finger pads and there should generally be daylight between your palm and the grip. Unless you have an odd hand or a prior injury I am not a fan of the Ziv grips or the Russian/American/Homemade/my uncle made them oddball grips. All to often they allow blade work to come from the wrist or arm instead of the fingers way to easy.

Certainly not true for everyone and good coaching can overcome most things granted. I know several very strong fencers that use them, but they usually have a reason other than "I like to be different" and have had excellent coaching to make sure they did not develop bad habits from it.

[Rick Shellhouse]

My general advice is this. Stick with an Italian or Belgian grip at first. Find one that is comfortable in the hand and then go down one size. Make sure you are using your fingers and not your wrist or whole hand. The grip should be controlled with the finger pads and there should generally be daylight between your palm and the grip. Unless you have an odd hand or a prior injury I am not a fan of the Ziv grips or the Russian/American/Homemade/my uncle made them oddball grips. All to often they allow blade work to come from the wrist or arm instead of the fingers way to easy.

Certainly not true for everyone and good coaching can overcome most things granted. I know several very strong fencers that use them, but they usually have a reason other than "I like to be different" and have had excellent coaching to make sure they did not develop bad habits from it.

Cville.....

Im gonna disagree with you on a few points here...I dont understand finding a grip that is comfortable and then GOING DOWN a size...That just really makes no sense and handles have different shank lengths between the hand and the guard...as well as different diameter of the shank etc. Proper coaching would show the fencer to use the right fingers etc...not a smaller handle.. I have a huge freaking hand..example my middle finger is almost 4.25" long using a smaller handle is plain uncomfortable..

Second there are alot of benifits to a Zif handles find me at a meet sometime and I will be glad to explain them all.

Your implication that only good coaching can make up for using such a handle seems alittle well...biased

Is a Zivkovic handle for everyone? Nope...Is there anything wrong with them...nope...are they different from other handles yup.....does this require some knowledge of their differnces and how to PROPERLY use them...yup..

Can you develop bad habits from ANY HANDLE on the market...

YUP!

I have to ask...if it was a LP handle would you be so "against" it?


R

[FoilyDeath]

Actually, I am going to have to agree with cville....A smaller grip is always best. If you hold it well, you can actually get more finger control and just as much strength.

[bigdawg2121]

When I first started being competitive I used Z grips on all of my foils and epees. As time went on I used a mix of Italian visconti and Z grips. I never really noticed a particularly large technique adjustment to switch between the two. Although I find that all Zivcovics tend to be a little uncomfortable at the back where the nut goes b/c of how that protrusion is molded. Filing helps. It also seems that there must have been a change in the mold at some point b/c even with filing I can't get any of my newer ones to feel like older ones I got from my coach.

[CvilleFencer]

Not arguing at all Rick, just wanted to try and explain my point of view on this a little bit better...

Im gonna disagree with you on a few points here...I dont understand finding a grip that is comfortable and then GOING DOWN a size...That just really makes no sense and handles have different shank lengths between the hand and the guard...as well as different diameter of the shank etc. Proper coaching would show the fencer to use the right fingers etc...not a smaller handle.. I have a huge freaking hand..example my middle finger is almost 4.25" long using a smaller handle is plain uncomfortable..

My little rant about fencers chasing a "magic" grip or blade aside... Take a rank newbie. Hand them a grip that is large enough to be comfortable to someone who is not a fencer. Almost always they are going to wrap all their fingers around it and snuggle their palm in tight against the grip in a way that feels "natural" to them. Its a sword right? They want to have a GRIP on that puppy. Once they do that they will have the tendency to try and use their wrist and arm and muscle through the actions even more so than normal.

If you take that same fencer and give them a grip that is a little two small and they try to do that, they will get immediate tactile feedback that this is not how it should work. Either they will be dropping it, their hand will cramp up or they will be thugging through enough that it will be noticeable even in a large beginner/intermediate class with 30 or so students. Once they come up to you (or draw attention to themselves) and present their "symptoms" you can "prescribe" the solution by showing them the proper way to hold the grip, how to manipulate it with their finger pads and explain to them why they don't want their whole hand wrapped around their grip.

I see a lot of fencers, some of them fairly experienced, who use grips that are two big for their hands and it hurts the subtlety of their actions and their fine point control. Sure they can adapt and some schools/coaches just focus on adapting to that or teach away from the "classic" subtle actions, but often the student realizes that something is a little off and goes searching for a grip to fix the problem that is rooted in their technique. I will grant you that my take on the proper grip and finger positioning may be a little old fashioned, but it is what works for me, my students and this is where my opinion on it comes from.

Now if you are starting off with a coach that teaches proper finger manipulation of a pistol grip early on and will help the student find the right grip for their hands and style it is much less of an issue. However, chances are if they are starting off that way they will not be posting the question on a fencing forum. Hence I try to steer them away from those grips that are easier to misuse which to me is most of the Zivs, Russians, Americans and a few other oddball grips out there.

Second there are alot of benifits to a Zif handles find me at a meet sometime and I will be glad to explain them all.

Chances are I would agree with you on a fair number of them but I would love to hear your thoughts on it sometime. It may interest you to know that I have recommended Zivs to some students and fencers on a case by case basis and I used them for a while when I was recovering from a broken finger and some hand damage. I still use a BIII on my coaching foil cause it is very comfy. But then again I am a little bit past the beginner stage and know how to use a pistol grip...

Your implication that only good coaching can make up for using such a handle seems alittle well...biased

Is a Zivkovic handle for everyone? Nope...Is there anything wrong with them...nope...are they different from other handles yup.....does this require some knowledge of their differnces and how to PROPERLY use them...yup..

It seems like your first sentence disagrees with me but then you go on to make my argument for me in the second paragraph...

Can you develop bad habits from ANY HANDLE on the market...

110% agree with you. However, so many fencers get their start in a (saying poorly coached sounds much harsher than I mean but I can't think of any other way to put it this late) High School, Parks and Rec or internally coached college programs that they often don't get some of the "classical" instruction of finger play/manipulation, pronation/suppination and so on that a lot of us take for granted. As such, the last thing they need is a grip that encourages poor habits. And I am not just saying Ziv grips here and not all Zivs at that...

I have to ask...if it was a LP handle would you be so "against" it?

Yes, absolutely. I have had to discourage the use of LP grips from more than a couple of my students. Not the Visconti since it comes in a range of sizes, but their Belgian (not the G pro which is smaller but insanely expensive...) grips. It tends to run rather huge. However, that spiffy crinkly coat is very appealing to newer fencers, especially the ones that are paranoid about loosing their grip, so they tend to gravitate towards them even when they are not the most appropriate size for them to be using.

No secret that I like a lot of LP stuff. Some of their stuff I don't like. However there are only a couple of LP items I can think of that are not at least medium quality level for the market. I have personal preference like anybody else, but I try to be fairly balanced in my recommendations on gear. I can and will recommend other things to people besides LP and I am far from a company spokesman of theirs or anything of the like.

The simple fact is that they make a lot of good, high end gear. It is also simple fact that it is way to expensive for some folks and quite honestly for some of their products you can find the same quality (or better in a few cases) for less money. Also I fully understand that one solution is not right for every person. Hence why I freely recommend products from a wide range of vendors and try to always give a few options in gear and vendors. Even if it is gear I don't carry or sell myself...

[Zilverzmurfen]

Which grip would you recommend to a foil fencer comfortable with a medium visconti?

Ok I've done some more thinking now and I think I'd recommend a medium Visconti...