Fencing to pull off cool touches vs fencing to win

[Frank Pratt]

If you can't flick with the new timing, don't blame the timing, blame yourself....All it takes is a change of technique. You can still flick anywhere you want, people just don't know how to do it.
Epee just doesn't have much close quarters anymore, which is where the fun stuff happens.

True. I saw a foilist earn his "A" yesterday with a nice, solid flick riposte to the back. Granted, he's a well-rounded fencer, and he went back to the basics to get most of his first 14 touches. You don't see touches like this as much as you used to, but some fencers can pull still pull it off regularly.

No attack (simple or fancy) can be used repeatedly without most fencers catching on. A touch to the side of the foot with a flick is very impressive, but most fencers won't fall for that trick over and over again.

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

I just think fencing is better when it looks nicer. Like whenever i fence i treat it as a show or spectacle to whoever is watching. Supposedly to everyone who knows me my fencing is fun to watch becasuie you never see the same thing twice and it flows pretty well.


I mean isnt this what fencing is, beating your opponent with grace and style
Instead of bombarding someone and just jabbing( which ive seen a lot of by fencers these days.)

It should be beatiful motions back and forth until someones trap has been sprung and its greater than the enemies. Idk what do you guys think?

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

and what about the fencers who every touch they get is dazzling in itself, I mean arent those the fencers you want to watch when you go to a tournament. Not the ones that win but after the bout you fee as if you are left with a bad taste in your mouth as if the fencign was utterly horrible. It felt like you had watched something that you could do yourself. In the the semi's and gold medal bout dont you wannna see behind the back touches, flicks , through the legs, high jumps, almost invisible bladework, and magnificent lunges. Isnt that why we compete, to attain skill like this.

[Frank Pratt]

and what about the fencers who every touch they get is dazzling in itself, I mean arent those the fencers you want to watch when you go to a tournament. Not the ones that win but after the bout you fee as if you are left with a bad taste in your mouth as if the fencign was utterly horrible. It felt like you had watched something that you could do yourself. In the the semi's and gold medal bout dont you wannna see behind the back touches, flicks , through the legs, high jumps, almost invisible bladework, and magnificent lunges. Isnt that why we compete, to attain skill like this.

I see your point, and agree with it, to an extent. On the other hand, Craig had a good point in that simple attacks can get more applause that the actions we see immortalized on fencing posters. That flick I saw yesterday was nice, but I heard more of an audiance reaction out of a fencer who finished off a "D" rated epeeist with a counter attack to the wrist. A simple, straightforward wrist touch (without a flick) can be harder, and more impresive, against some opponents that a flick to the shoulder.

That said, I like to see creativity as much as the next person. Perhaps each touch could be decided by a panel of judges that rates each attack with numbered score cards. We could also model an annual national event after the NBA's Slam Dunk Contest.

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

I see your point, and agree with it, to an extent. On the other hand, Craig had a good point in that simple attacks can get more applause that the actions we see immortalized on fencing posters. That flick I saw yesterday was nice, but I heard more of an audiance reaction out of a fencer who finished off a "D" rated epeeist with a counter attack to the wrist. A simple, straightforward wrist touch (without a flick) can be harder, and more impresive, against some opponents that a flick to the shoulder.

That said, I like to see creativity as much as the next person. Perhaps each touch could be decided by a panel of judges that rates each attack with numbered score cards. We could also model an annual national event after the NBA's Slam Dunk Contest.

Well i dont mean to go to the extreme as a panel of judges. I'm just saying ive seen fencers who seem like they have no discipline of the sport at all. Just literally poking and they actually have ratings and it makes me think where is fencing going. I come back to one fencer VERWILJEN, i mean not to get on anyones nerves but i find his fencing utterly atrocious. I can sweat the little details i mean okay your foot is not exactly 90 degrees and okay your arm isnt always styraigh and you lean alittle, but the guys fencing looks like it's composed entirely of bad habits. I just dont want to see fencing go in that direction, like i mean you can win but does anyone want to watch you win. Is the stands packed when your fencing or when your fencing has everyone already left. I want my bouts to be the ones that you have to see, you cant miss, the ones that you have to cancel your engagements just to get a glimpse.

maybe a lil too deep

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

also i want you guys to know that i have no problem with simple actions because sometimes those are the ones that look the best ( onguard line hand touches) im just saying that i'm tired of going to a match and feel like i wasted my time watching two fencers in fighting and poking , while looking at the machine and like flesching with nothing no idea at all in their mind. I hate watching bouts like that

[annacattiva]

I think most people here would agree that it's nicer to watch fencers whose fencing is pretty than fencers whose fencing isn't. Some of the reaction you're getting, though, is because it sounds like you're equating pretty with flashy. Most of the fencers whom I've seen concentrating on pleasing the crowd are Flashy, and only sometimes pretty. Fencers who are concentrating on fencing well, with good actions, solid footwork, and at least an attempt at strategy, tend to fence pretty.

Anna

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

I think most people here would agree that it's nicer to watch fencers whose fencing is pretty than fencers whose fencing isn't. Some of the reaction you're getting, though, is because it sounds like you're equating pretty with flashy. Most of the fencers whom I've seen concentrating on pleasing the crowd are Flashy, and only sometimes pretty. Fencers who are concentrating on fencing well, with good actions, solid footwork, and at least an attempt at strategy, tend to fence pretty.

Anna

but you answer this saying that you know when people are trying to be flashy but in reality something that you might say as someone being flashy could be a drill the person has been working on for months but to you it looks like the fencer is being flashy and the same goes for the opposite.

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

my fencing actually has a sort of flare to it but the moves that people may percieve as me showing off are moves that ive trained long and hard at to perfect them and use them in certain situations so wouldnt that mean they are actually regular moves and not some sort of special set only used to make lower level fencers feel bad and to get the dazzle the crowd

[FoilyDeath]

The real question is by cool hits do you mean clean simple hits in distance or crazy jumping hits of death? Cos I live by the former.

[annacattiva]

my fencing actually has a sort of flare to it but the moves that people may percieve as me showing off are moves that ive trained long and hard at to perfect them and use them in certain situations so wouldnt that mean they are actually regular moves and not some sort of special set only used to make lower level fencers feel bad and to get the dazzle the crowd

Wow. Well, there we have it; there's no need to keep going in this thread

Incidentally, if your fencing really does have a flare to it, then be careful where you point it, or you might injure someone. I think flares are probably quite a bit more dangerous even than flaming bagels.

Anna

[MYSTERYFENCERX]

The real question is by cool hits do you mean clean simple hits in distance or crazy jumping hits of death? Cos I live by the former.

i mean both because both are known as cool touches

[Superscribe]

i don't know how old you are, mystery fencer... but i'm going to go out on a limb and say you aren't too old, and you haven't really made it to high level fencing. When i say high level fencing i mean like... i dunno national points.

The reason i point this out is not to belittle, but to suggest that once you develop your fencing and you fence people who are equally as good as you,the question will answer itself. At a low level, its heartbreaking to see people squirm and hack and slash, and basically make a mockery of fencing footwork. That's how it is though, they're learning. it's easy to add a little flash to the cameras at this stage, because everybody's so slow.

High level competitions are faster. If you think about doing something with even a little more flair that you need, the otehr person's gonna pop you with a direct attack or remise or something to stop your action. You don't have to worry about putting flair into you fencing at this level, however, because things look plenty good when you do what you are supposed to. Good engardes and quick footwork with complicated textbook bladework looks great when you are movign fast. And believe me, things move fast. People don't admire athletes because they have choreographed moves, (though some signature moves are great... only if you are a real real icon), but because they are so good at what they do they can come up with some really creative things on the spot. If it's not spontaneous and creative, people can smell it usually...and it smells bad.

If you really want to show off, infighting is the time to do it. At a distance, you can't really do some level 99 dragonball z attack without looking like a tool. When you get close, there is an excuse for you to do something unexpected, and jump high and contort your body. It's acceptable here because actions are difficult to keep track, so you don't risk losing right of way, and distances are so close you can afford to move your hand and blade extra.

Foil is the best for flash because it's a lighter weapon, and with row you have more freedom to move without having someone locking you out as in epee ie you parry someone and go to whip your blade behind your back to hit them, in epee there's a good chance they can remise and lock you out. In foil you are honored the riposte. The lockout issue is also an issue with sabre, but flash doesn't really happen because it's so abrupt and friggin easy to land a touch when the entire blade is will trigger a light.

it's late, i just had a party, but what i say still stands. When people are really moving up and down the strip and their lunges look like a-bombs going off, it looks fine as it is.

[oiuyt]

i don't know how old you are, mystery fencer... but i'm going to go out on a limb and say you aren't too old, and you haven't really made it to high level fencing. When i say high level fencing i mean like... i dunno national points.

16- or 17-years old, B-level fencer. Epee.

-B

[Superscribe]

so i'm guessing i was right? not to demean or anything, i mean... a b is pretty good... for what it's worth in epee.

[Fechter1]

I think most people here would agree that it's nicer to watch fencers whose fencing is pretty than fencers whose fencing isn't. Some of the reaction you're getting, though, is because it sounds like you're equating pretty with flashy. Most of the fencers whom I've seen concentrating on pleasing the crowd are Flashy, and only sometimes pretty. Fencers who are concentrating on fencing well, with good actions, solid footwork, and at least an attempt at strategy, tend to fence pretty.

Anna

And here we get to the heart of the matter: What do we consider good (pretty) touches? (BTW, I agree, flashy != pretty)
For me, there's nothing 'cooler' than maneuvering an opponent into a simple direct lunge to the glove. Then again, I play to a crowd that can see the minutiae in tempo control. I delight in seeing clean form, a simplicity in blade actions, subleties in tempo, etc. Call me old-fashioned, but that's what's been working for me. The simple action executed at the proper time wins.

Oh, I also take delight in tearing flashy fencers new ones... If you're fencing to look cool and I'm fencing to win, guess what? I'll win, and you'll look silly. (Unless you're that far above my skill level)

Note: No personal insults were intended, and are apologized for if incurred. Just my $.02

Edit: Props to Foily's and super's posts.

[epeemike81]

If you can't flick with the new timing, don't blame the timing, blame yourself....All it takes is a change of technique. You can still flick anywhere you want, people just don't know how to do it.
Epee just doesn't have much close quarters anymore, which is where the fun stuff happens.

who said you can't flick with new timing? certainly not me! My point was more that pretty much any touch, flick or straight, may or may not get a light at any given time. you can hit somebody square in the chest and not get a light (even if they're NOT wearing a chest protector).

I seem to remember, in fact, a certain British fencer at yesterday's open at PdF having a surprising amount of trouble landing touches against his last opponent...

-m

[piste off]

Thats true of course. Just saying, the majority of very very cool hits happen in infighting in foil. If your doing infighting in epee, your doing something wrong:P Flicks to the foot just really aren't as cool as jumping in the air and hitting the guy between your legs, or hitting him from behind your head, or hell, jumping over them when they duck and flicking them in mid air:P

As if the last examples you gave are not because you did something wrong...

It is all about probabilities. If you go for fancy you are not optimizing your chances to win.

Rick

[Dr Epee]

Well i dont mean to go to the extreme as a panel of judges. I'm just saying ive seen fencers who seem like they have no discipline of the sport at all. Just literally poking and they actually have ratings and it makes me think where is fencing going. I come back to one fencer VERWILJEN, i mean not to get on anyones nerves but i find his fencing utterly atrocious. I can sweat the little details i mean okay your foot is not exactly 90 degrees and okay your arm isnt always styraigh and you lean alittle, but the guys fencing looks like it's composed entirely of bad habits. I just dont want to see fencing go in that direction, like i mean you can win but does anyone want to watch you win. Is the stands packed when your fencing or when your fencing has everyone already left. I want my bouts to be the ones that you have to see, you cant miss, the ones that you have to cancel your engagements just to get a glimpse.

maybe a lil too deep

Are you confusing "flashy moves" with good form. Classical "good form" is that way for a reason, because, over the centuries people found that certain movements and body postures worked! It's also no accident that such "good form" is also pleasing to the eye, even for nonfencers. People can and do succeed with something less than good form, but I think that by and large if you'll watch the most successful fencers you'll see that their en guarde positions, footwork, lunges, etc. are nearly textbook, and they show a certain grace and economy of movement that is beautiful to watch. That's the sort of fencing people will line up to see, not hot-dogging.

[FoilyDeath]

who said you can't flick with new timing? certainly not me! My point was more that pretty much any touch, flick or straight, may or may not get a light at any given time. you can hit somebody square in the chest and not get a light (even if they're NOT wearing a chest protector).

I seem to remember, in fact, a certain British fencer at yesterday's open at PdF having a surprising amount of trouble landing touches against his last opponent...

-m

Oh, low blow:P
Good call though...then again, I couldn't fence yesterday, let alone hit anything flashy. Or a barn wall for that matter. ****ty excuse for absymal fencing, but there you go.
But yes, its true you usually see most flashy hits while training. Then again, the exceptions are mostly in foil, when they do happen.