Considering Starting

[Coldfire]

Originally Posted by upnorse

Hi Tim,
After sifting through many of the grossly biased rantings posted to your question, I most closely agree with 'Dedigan'.

The key to beginning is seriousness, the Foil is the beginning weapon and from there all forms of fencing branch. After learning the Foil you may want to try out Sabre and Epee, which is fine, but take it from a 21 year veteran that has seen too many fencers lacking the ability to move and even stand on guard correctly - take your time, learn the basics and realise that fencing is not about winning (well it is to some people) it is about discipline, honor, courage, humility, truthfulness, wholeness of body and mind and the spirituality that comes with it.

I don't really agree with this. Fence what you plan on fencing. There are benefits to be had from fencing the other weapons now and then but it can also lead to messing up your primary if you arent careful. Why isnt it possible to learn a proper en garde and footwork by starting with the weapon you intend to fence?

Today sport fencing is so far removed from the duels and combat where it started that nearly everyone forgets that 'if' these weapons were really sharp both competitors would be dead and there would be no-one to fence with tomorrow.

Thats why its called sport fencing. Many may start with delusions of grandeur and epic duels but really fencing isnt about that any more. They aren't weapons anymore. They are pieces of sporting equipment that came from swords but arent actually swords and really not dangerous if used properly.

Listen to everyone, learn all you can, sort it all out later. You have tons of time and can become a fantastic swordsman if you set all ego aside and keep both eyes open.

He wants to become a fencer not a swordsman. However I do agree to listen and absorb as much as you can.

Your friend, both on the street and behind the mask,
-Don the U.P. Norseman[/quote]

Originally Posted by Peach

Many people swear by starting with foil, but you'll have to unlearn a number of things if you plan to pick up sabre. Many people start with sabre these days if they know they are going to stick with it. I start my own students with sabre.

Exactly my point. I started with sabre and am none the worse for it. Its really not a huge deal.

[Inquartata]

Hurrah, common sense is spreading and that silly old chestnut about "foil first" is starting to lose its hold.

[Lucifer]

It's the old acoustic guitar vs electric guitar argument (anybody here play guitar?). The difference has to do with what you plan on playing. If you start on electric guitar because that's what you want to play, who cares if it means you're going to have problems with acoustic? Start with acoustic, then move to electric, you'll have the same problems, because you primarily play electric...

Anyway, I'm on foil now because that's what the class does. I'm interested in rapier.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Oy! People! He's 14 years old! Give him a break!

Kid...realize that you WILL start with foil unless you're fencing someplace crazy. Also realize that you will meet people in the club and at competitions, and you will see who you like to hang out with (the sabre fencers are the ones with scars on their knuckles. not from fencing sabre, mind you...from dragging their knuckles on the ground as they "walk." the epeeists are the ones who look funny...sort of like the sabre fencers, only they're taller and have less facial hair)

In my region, I've seen a sabre fencer show up at a competition, and have no one else show up to fence his weapon. You have to be aware of how popular your weapon is in your region, or you could be really lonely.

By the way...foil events usually start earlier than epee and sabre because foil fencers are used to getting up early to go to their jobs as doctors and lawyers and engineers and the such. Epee fencers work at carnivals, so they usually get up a little later. Sabre fencers still live in the basement of their mom's house and work at a sports photograph kiosk at the mall...so their events start last.

[upnorse]

Originally Posted by Timo

Yeah, I'm doing foil of course and then doing sabre or epee as I choose later Now I'm pretty sure after a lot of reading I know everything about fencing I can without actually haved fenced. Time to play the month long waiting game until the lessons start...

You don't have to wait... grab a yardstick or a broom-handle, position yourself in front of a full-length mirror and copy the parries and footwork shown in the books.

Absolutely nothing will substitute for guided practice and more practice but you can get a jump on "the game" by noticing how your body feels and looks in the different positions. Come as close as you can to the pictures - feel your center of balance, slowly advance and retreat and do some suito lunges to stretch out you leg muscles.

As to the comments about re-learning different forms and that being bad... It is not that you will forget how to use a Foil or that you will pick up bad habits and not do Sabre as well, each weapon feels different in you hand, each is a different "game" with slightly different rules, tactics and positions.

Does playing Basketball make you bad at Baseball (well maybe in Micheal Jordon's case, for those who remember).

Would you drive a car recklessly because you learned the rules of the road on a motorcycle or would you crash a motorbike because you learned how to balance on a MTB? I scarcely think so, there are differences of course but each is different in a way that your brain understands and compensates for.

Again the real trick is to start at a pace you can handle and keep learning. Don't get bogged down with the silly notion that one is better than the other, they all have their merits. The problem is when people shut themselves off from having great experiences because they feel their way is the only way, they end up blind to life.

And you may not want to become a "Swordsman" but I would hope more people today would approach life in the same mental fashion that a "Good Swordsman" would handle the situation.

We fight serious and deadly duels. The challenge can come at any time from our mortal enemies: Ego! Falsehood! Prejudice! Compromise! Vanity! Cowardice! and Ignorance!

Our weapons of defence against these are: Self-control! Truthfulness! Understanding! Firmness! Humility! Bravery! and Knowledge!


From this line I Salute you.

[Coldfire]

Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old

Oy! People! He's 14 years old! Give him a break!

Kid...realize that you WILL start with foil unless you're fencing someplace crazy.
In my region, I've seen a sabre fencer show up at a competition, and have no one else show up to fence his weapon. You have to be aware of how popular your weapon is in your region, or you could be really lonely.

I guess I fence someplace crazy.

As for being lonely...if everyone had that mindset the weapon would never grow in places where a specific weapon is underdeveloped.

Originally Posted by upnorse

Don't get bogged down with the silly notion that one is better than the other, they all have their merits. The problem is when people shut themselves off from having great experiences because they feel their way is the only way, they end up blind to life.

Please note that most of the weapon bashing that goes around here is all in good fun. We don't really mean any of it. We're all fencers and we all enjoy the idea behind it. Its just fun to make fun of the other weapons from time to time.

And you may not want to become a "Swordsman" but I would hope more people today would approach life in the same mental fashion that a "Good Swordsman" would handle the situation.

We fight serious and deadly duels. The challenge can come at any time from our mortal enemies: Ego! Falsehood! Prejudice! Compromise! Vanity! Cowardice! and Ignorance!

Our weapons of defence against these are: Self-control! Truthfulness! Understanding! Firmness! Humility! Bravery! and Knowledge!


From this line I Salute you.

Am I the only one who reads this and goes "wtf?"

[upnorse]

Originally Posted by Coldfire

I guess I fence someplace crazy.


Please note that most of the weapon bashing that goes around here is all in good fun. We don't really mean any of it. We're all fencers and we all enjoy the idea behind it. Its just fun to make fun of the other weapons from time to time.


Am I the only one who reads this and goes "wtf?"

Careful Coldfire your immaturity is showing! Getting a little de-fensive are we? Why bash anything and why say things that you don't mean?

If you'd like to discuss this further I suggest creating your own thred and pursue the issue there. Timo's Query has been resolved.

[Coldfire]

Originally Posted by upnorse

Careful Coldfire your immaturity is showing! Getting a little de-fensive are we? Why bash anything and why say things that you don't mean?

I wasn't defensive about anything so I don't know what you're talking about. Why bash anything? Because its fun and its what we (a lot of the community at fencing.net) do every now and then. People say things they don't mean all the time. Once again we aren't serious about the things we say about the others weapons. We just like to mess around with each other and thats how we do it. Clearly you are new to the forums so I can understand if you didn't know that but now you do. If you don't like it don't participate in it.

Careful upnorse, valiant swordsman of old, your "just joined" usergroup is showing.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old

Kid...realize that you WILL start with foil unless you're fencing someplace crazy.

Yeah...like OFA or LAIFC or Nellya or Westbrook..."crazy" places like that. Kind of makes crazy sound attractive, doesn't it?

Really, any top club should let you decide what weapon you want to fence, if you have a preference. You are paying for a service, eg lessons and coaching, and you should be able to specify the type of service you receive.

Think about it. If you want to learn karate, is it "crazy" to expect to learn karate, and not judo? If you want to play the violin, is it "crazy" to expect to learn the violin rather than to be told that no, you must play piano for a year first? If you go to Arthur Miller and ask to learn ballroom dancing, is it reasonable to be told that a few months of hip hop or salsa are prerequisites?

Absent a compelling practical reason, such as that the club only does foil or the coach can only teach foil, trying to force square pegs into round holes is the sign of a mediocre club and/or coach or an exploitive one, IMO. The best ones will work with you, not try to twist your arm.

OTOH, if you want to do foil or have no real preference---and many if not most beginners do not---then and only then foil is as good a place to start as any.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Yeah...like OFA or LAIFC or Nellya or Westbrook..."crazy" places like that. Kind of makes crazy sound attractive, doesn't it?

Really, any top club should let you decide what weapon you want to fence, if you have a preference. You are paying for a service, eg lessons and coaching, and you should be able to specify the type of service you receive.

Think about it. If you want to learn karate, is it "crazy" to expect to learn karate, and not judo? If you want to play the violin, is it "crazy" to expect to learn the violin rather than to be told that no, you must play piano for a year first? If you go to Arthur Miller and ask to learn ballroom dancing, is it reasonable to be told that a few months of hip hop or salsa are prerequisites?

Absent a compelling practical reason, such as that the club only does foil or the coach can only teach foil, trying to force square pegs into round holes is the sign of a mediocre club and/or coach or an exploitive one, IMO. The best ones will work with you, not try to twist your arm.

OTOH, if you want to do foil or have no real preference---and many if not most beginners do not---then and only then foil is as good a place to start as any.

I actually agree with you, Inq...but I needed a lead-in for "knuckle draggers."

[Inquartata]

We long since learned to tape roller skates to the backs of our hands to ameliorate that problem.

[D'Art]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

We long since learned to tape roller skates to the backs of our hands to ameliorate that problem.

Yeah, but the eepers haven't. Give tehm a couple of million years and they might have reached such lofty heights....

[Timo]

Okay, thanks again for the replys, but I have a nother question.

I have no idea if the club I'll be fencing at is any good, but it excepts only 8 people per class, which makes me think that they're not just in it for then money.

It's unlikely but has anyone every delt with the Springfiled Fencing club, from IL? (http://spfldfencingclub.onesite.com/)
And does that 8 student thing show anything about the quality of the club?

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Originally Posted by Timo

Okay, thanks again for the replys, but I have a nother question.

I have no idea if the club I'll be fencing at is any good, but it excepts only 8 people per class, which makes me think that they're not just in it for then money.

It's unlikely but has anyone every delt with the Springfiled Fencing club, from IL? (http://spfldfencingclub.onesite.com/)
And does that 8 student thing show anything about the quality of the club?

I'd say it's unlikely that ANYONE is in fencing "just for the money." There's just not that much money to be made.

[upnorse]

The real Question is do You want to fence? I believe that getting started is most of the battle. If you out-grow the club (which can happen easily) then it would be time to move on.

Eight students is a good number for a serious coach/instructor to have - less and there isn't much variety, more and there isn't as much personal attention.

My first class was at MSU and with 20 other beginners, the exam basically was if you showed up or not. The only thing I really learned was that Women are as capable as Men and "it hurts if you do it wrong" (double meaning intended). After that it was in and out of various clubs, until a creepy old man came up to me after an organized competition and asked, "So what do you know about your weapon anyway?".(He was a World Class Foil Fencer) With some real attention to form and a lot of chess-like tactics buried in history lessons, (I believe) he showed me how to become quite good.

Now I Teach/Coach students to become the best they can, if they surpass my knowledge and skill level, I'll tell them so and send them to someone who can show them more. I think that is what every good coach should do.

For now, get some practice under your belt, learn all you can and fence well, not to "win". Winning will come later.

If you are worried about the reputation of the club you are in, do the best you possibly can to make it great. Good Luck!

[the maple epee]

That's another great thing about fencing, it's the only sport that really has mysterious, cryptic old masters.

[theLuz]

start with (and maybe stay with) foil. You'll get a much better workout, learn to think in logical bites (same rules as debate), and be a much better person. Good luck. Most of us here wish we had started when we were 14.

[theLuz]

Originally Posted by upnorse

, until a creepy old man came up to me after an organized competition and asked,

For now, get some practice under your belt, learn all you can and fence well, not to "win". Winning will come later.

If you are worried about the reputation of the club you are in, do the best you possibly can to make it great. Good Luck!

I guess I'm a "creepy old man, now". That hurts. You make a good point about the "don't fence to win, fence to get better". That's why there are so many epee fanatics: they want to win too soon. You're very wise.

[Timo]

good reply's. I have worked a bit on the parry positions, and a friend who took fencing lessons there (which I didn't know about) told me that the lesons were good, but he found all the footwork they did boring. I can't wait though! Only 18 days! (I have nothing to do now-a-days, I just sit around)