Copying the Pros

[LeftHanded]

My and my friend were talking about professional fencers and how we will copy the way they fence while modifing it to our own style. I was thinking, because the person I was trying to mimick used alot of really shallow attacks before committing I did the same thing. The diadvantage was that because I was copying what I saw and had not learned I picked up the habit of making an attack but pulling it back to soon. For this reason I had attacks that would have landed had I not pulled the attack. Does anyone else do this?

[Army Fencer]

My and my friend were talking about professional fencers and how we will copy the way they fence while modifing it to our own style. I was thinking, because the person I was trying to mimick used alot of really shallow attacks before committing I did the same thing. The diadvantage was that because I was copying what I saw and had not learned I picked up the habit of making an attack but pulling it back to soon. For this reason I had attacks that would have landed had I not pulled the attack. Does anyone else do this?

Who are you defining as a "pro"?

[MessiahFencing]

i Generally do see others fence and take what i see as their best moves. We all SHOULD. Pro wise, i commonly talke romankov's feint attacks, moving slowly, showing minimal target, then a quick burst and boooom!

[LeftHanded]

I define the fencers that compete in World Championships and other events of that caliber. I really like the way Danuta Dmowska fences. My friend who idolizes Kolobkov makes fun of me for it.

[noodle]

there's a big difference between trying to emulate the pros and watching what the pros are doing to pick up ideas.

[BySword]

I define the fencers that compete in World Championships and other events of that caliber. I really like the way Danuta Dmowska fences. My friend who idolizes Kolobkov makes fun of me for it.

yea because she is chick and a hot chick nevertheless...

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I define the fencers that compete in World Championships and other events of that caliber. I really like the way Danuta Dmowska fences. My friend who idolizes Kolobkov makes fun of me for it.

Danuta is fun to watch fence.

Anyway, I think alot of fencers go through a stage of mimicking high level fencers. The stylistic changes rarely produce the change desired. You can mimic someones stance and action choice, but its pretty effing futile to try to mimic someones physical makeup, their sense of distance, timing and tactics, or their years of experience. You just can't copy that.

IMHO, the majority of the benefit comes from the fencer identifying with a higher level of athletic cultivation. Sometimes the first step toward being better is seeing yourself as a better athlete than you really are. People tend to act like who they think they are (theres something in there for coaches to think about....).

I guess I should mention that experimenting with different stances and action choices can be a tactically and technically horizon expanding experience, but don't expect it to make you a completely different fencer.

[piste off]

Don't copy them. Learn from them and integrate it into your own style.

Especially in epee (which it sounds like you fence), there are massive differences in styles that reflect a number of variables about the individual. Chances are no one fencer has the same settings as you.

I have fenced for almost 3 decades, and have had the fortune to practice with the pros on a consistent basis, and am still learning from watching others. Even from the non-pros.

Rick

[MessiahFencing]

yeah don't have one flow of style and shove in a random move you saw someone really cool do..

How now malvolio? - Love the Twelfth Night Fever!!!

[LeftHanded]

That has alot of scense to it. i have been fencing and I will have my style and then my copy style which requires a lot more energy.

[LordShout]

My competitive style is basically completly stolen from the fencers around me, I have my own interpretation of their actions but I rarely come back from a tournament without some new strategy to practice.

The key though is interpreting the moves and translating them into something you can do. I'm not Andras Horayni, I can't move like him/fence like him, so if I try to simply copy his movements without translation it's worse than useless. However when I see him using certain body movements and than figure out how I can reproduce the end effect (not getting hit on counter lunges) I've 'stolen' his move without directly and uselessly copying it.

[RebelFencer]

Funny enough, when I first started fencing I had no distinct style because of the fact that I would mimic fencers around me who I saw as having some established level of success. It would be pretty entertaining because if I was losing, instead of changing tactics I would change who I was pretending to be. The problem was that I didn't understand the reasoning behind the method of fencing, which made for a very shallow game. There's nothing wrong with looking to people for ideas, but you have to keep the fact that no two good fencers fence alike. Never stop learning, especially from the best, but make sure that within the bounds of technical proficiency...you still need to make the move your own. This way it feels natural and you don't have to think as much when performing it, which leaves your mind open to worry about tactical problems as opposed to technical. But yeah, as long as you don't look and say, "Kolobkov does x move like this, so I have to do it exactly in this motion and at this angulation or else it's wrong," you should be in good shape.

[jBirch]

You guys have no idea what you do to your coaches when you experiment like this...

James.

[Durando]

You guys have no idea what you do to your coaches when you experiment like this...

James.

James,

You're assuming quite alot about the learning model. I really think it is a rare student who lets you pour learning into his ear.

Also, I think watching high level fencers is a fantastic way to learn, especially for those students (me) who are disposed to visual learning. Does it result in errors on the strip? Yes. Does it result in a higher level of student engagement? Yes. A coach is someone who helps you experiment more efficiently and intelligently.

[seven6ty]

Yeah, agreed. Not that I'm a coach, but I'd much rather have a student who researches into techniques and tactics of top level fencers, rather than one who just sits there and only tries the thing their one coach teaches them, without searching any further than just that. But, then again, I can see how that would end up making a coach consider and try out actions other than what they teach, and how that could be too much work for some people to want to deal with.

[jBirch]

James,

You're assuming quite alot about the learning model. I really think it is a rare student who lets you pour learning into his ear.

Agreed. Doesn't mean we coaches wouldn't like it t'other way round though.

Also, I think watching high level fencers is a fantastic way to learn, especially for those students (me) who are disposed to visual learning. Does it result in errors on the strip? Yes. Does it result in a higher level of student engagement? Yes. A coach is someone who helps you experiment more efficiently and intelligently.

You're coflating two different things here.

First, watching high level bouts doesn't teach a student anything about how to make their fencing better. In fact, it retards it. Why? Because they're watching the results of many years of practice, timing pressure and a certain amount of inspiration. This is the top level of skills development and most fencers are no where near that level. What tends to happen is that the student's inexperienced eye catches something flashy and they focus on that without seeing the extremely important nuance of its application. The OP's question is a case in point. They'd do much better to watch high level students PRACTICE then to watch them compete if skills acquisition is their goal.

Second, learning by experimentation is a great tool for a coach to help teach a student a skill. However, it must be used with caution and in controlled settings. Totally free experimentation is called "learning without a coach" and while it can be done, it usually results in extraordinarily bad technique. There is a pedagogy for a good reason.

James.

[Durando]

Agreed. Doesn't mean we coaches wouldn't like it t'other way round though.
You're coflating two different things here.

Well, it all depends on who is watching and how they are watching. I remember watching bouts from the LA Olympics with my coach well before the internet. What did I learn? How small the actions were and how precise and, at the same time, athletic the footwork was. It was at that moment when I began to understand tempo. It took me more than a year to really get this, mostly because I was fencing with people who had very little idea of what fencing was supposed to look like. You don't see this sort of weird, bookish movement anymore in the States except around the classical fencing sorts. Why don't you watch a bout with your students and guide their attention in some fruitful direction? Analyze together, for example, Eric Boisse's attacks into preparation. So, so much to learn there.

In another life I used to play a lot of tennis. It was always amazing to me how much better I played in the hours after watching a pro match. Timing groundstrokes and even serving became so much easier with a visual model still present. Not to mention the audio cues that go along with it. I haven't really tried this with fencing, but I think I shall.

I still don't get why you're against this.

[jBirch]

I still don't get why you're against this.

I'm not so much against it as I am for watching bouts with your coach along. That's all. I find a lot of students watch competitions, see the gold medalist do something funky and dedicate the next six months to trying to make the funky move work.

Rarely do fencers watch high level competitions and come out with an appreciation for the nuance of distance and tempo, the precision of the bladework and footwork or the hours of work that it took to craft their responses. That you did speaks more to your character and the stage of your development then it does to the process as a whole.

There is a time when watching high level bouts provides meaningful information to the student. But the student first needs to learn how to watch fencing and how to think about what they're doing on the piste before that process can be productive. If they can't see what's happening, they like to glom on to the cool flashy thing and not the simple elegant thing.

Hope this helps.

James.

[eac]

I think watching high-powered bouts is extremely important, but I agree with James that it has to wait until you know what to look for.

Bad way to watch high-level fencing: I remember my first coach on the first day showed us Olympic video, and we had no idea what was going on, because a) it was horrible resolution, horrible exposure, so even a real fencer wouldn't know what was going on, and b) we didn't know how to watch fencing. Years later, I started to figure out that there was a reason none of his students looked like that, but in the meantime it was just confusing.

Good way to watch fencing: When I got up to an average C05, I watched Junior and Div I Nationals and NACs. At that point, I could pretty much see what was going on, and was struck by the giant gulf between me and that. In particular, the technical precision I saw motivated me to totally destroy my technique in favor of new, correct technique (coincident with a new, correct coach).
Especially, I fixed my footwork by directly copying one fencer's footwork, practicing in my dorm room and the fencing room until being that low stopped hurting and started working.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

In another life I used to play a lot of tennis. It was always amazing to me how much better I played in the hours after watching a pro match. Timing groundstrokes and even serving became so much easier with a visual model still present. Not to mention the audio cues that go along with it. I haven't really tried this with fencing, but I think I shall.

Interesting. There is a fairly high level coach (international success), who is real into his/her students watching high level fencing footage before practicing footwork and bladework.

I think you might be on to something.