Practice Weapon Opinions needed

[UKExPat]

Since friends have directed me to this resource I thought I might take advantage of the many strong opinions I've read.

The rec dept that funds my club is giving me some funds for my beginner class, I'm putting it towards practice weapons.

Here's the question, should I use normal practice weapons with rubber tips, or should I go the unwired blades with dummy points?
I've had parents complain ad naseum about replace rubber tips.

Your Thoughts?

[DangerMouse]

We switched to standard practice weapons a couple years ago and it's saved a ton of money. The rubber tips are cheap and they aren't too hard to get on. If you boil them for a few seconds it softens them just enough to slip on easily.

[Allen Evans]

Tape the rubber tips on.

Allen

[pokey]

Or a dab of glue in the rubber tip before you slip it on the end. I use plastic model cement because it's what I usually have handy, but I heard a hot glue gun works too.

Does anyone twist the tip once they put it on? Some of my clubmates swear by it, but it seems to me like all it would do is widen the slot and make it fall out easier.

[oiuyt]

Buy real blades and put real tips on them. Don't bother wiring them.

Rubber tips handle and hit completely differently. Practice blades handle completely differently than electric blades (even given the massiva variation between various brands of electric blade). Train with correct equipment. Get people used to what it feels like to hit, what types of hits will stick, and what depresses a tip (other than finding out that the pommel nut he's been pining after would rather date a bellguard).

-B

[oiuyt]

Hmmmm. I got rep for the above post, but without a comment. How am I supposed to know if it was for the actually-useful (perhaps even insightful?) portion of what I wrote, or the concluding, parenthetical joke?

(other than, you know, the fact that jokes get rep significantly more often than useful contributions)

-B

[Allen Evans]

Oiuyt:

I agree with all of your reasons for using real points in unwired blades. However, esp. with younger fencers (and by the OP complaint about parents, I assume that younger fencers are being taught). I think that rubber tips are still the way to go. They distribute force better when used by beginners who "punch" a lot. Rubber points are also less damange inflicting when used in the sweeping motions kids often consider "fencing".

I think the goal in beginning classes is NOT to teach people to fence, but to find out which people want to learn to fence, and to encourage those people to come back. The first hurdle in that process is to teach students that they will get hit, and they will hit, and it won't be too uncomfortable.

Allen

[VorpalCat]

I also think the rubber tips help beginners see what the blades (both theirs and their opponent's) are doing.* No, they shouldn't be watching the blades per se, but that goofy rubber tip does show up better in their general 'fencing field of view' -- visual training wheels, if you will. Once they get a feel for proper movement, switching to the other blades/tips would be a logical step though.

[jBirch]

The downside, of course, is that you can't hook up and actually fence without working weapons/lames/masks. The impact of having a light go off when the student hits another person is priceless and significantly helps retention. It's not to be discounted.

We put the kids on an equipment purchasing plan where we provide all the gear up front and they need to start supplying their own gear in subsequent semesters on an incremental basis. First semester is glove, body wire and chest protector. Second semester is weapon, third semester is jacket, fourth, mask, fifth lame. The incremental cost is minimal.

We also have both practice weapons and electric weapons. The beginners get practice weapons and limited use of the electric gear on piste. The more experienced fencers have their own gear, so the electric stuff we have lasts a while and acts as backfill for competitions and demos.

Hope this helps.

James.

[Rabid Monk]

At our club (and most clubs here), equipment is provided if needed.
We have a selection of electric and non-electric weapons.

For the non-electric, our armourer has found that putting epoxy (hard-set stuff) around the button on the tip, and then coating it with several layers of plastic or rubber dip (i.e Plasti Dip) is far more reliable than plastic buttons. It isn't as easy to remove, but all they need is the occasionaly recoating of plastic.

Just presenting another option for you.

[CvilleFencer]

You know, I think which way to go really depends on the type of program you are running. If you are running a beginners recreational fencing class and sort of starting from the ground up with your membership, I would say the softer rubber points on flexible dry weapons (taped on) is the way to go. I like the large, soft rubber points that TCA sells by the way. Softest and least likely to bruise that I have found.

However, if this is for a competitive club or to be used in advanced classes think that weapons as close to real electrics are the way to go. If you have a lot of parts laying around, building a "steam" foil out of a cracked barrel, a soft spring and an iffy point is a cheap way to go and you don't have to by the parts. Plus you get a nice "real" feeling practice weapon. If you have more bucks to spend, just use wired weapons.

My club is a recreational club with just a few fencers who are on the local competitive circuit. We start our beginners off with practice weapons but by the time the are in the competitive (C1 and C2 classes) they have and are using electric gear.

Also if you can afford it and have enough strips, what Jbirch says about the retention factor of having them fence and see lights go off ASAP is something to think about. However few of us have the space/gear to go that route...

[Rabid Monk]

You don't need a piste to fence electric.
At our club we just have the outlines marked out on the floor with tape. The only thing yto be aware of is that it is not grounded, so epeeists have to be honest about toe hits.

[akaiyuki]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Rubber tips handle and hit completely differently. Practice blades handle completely differently than electric blades

I certainly agree with that. How many competitive fencers still has a practice foil that they use to train with?

For beginners though, practice blades are usually softer and give less bruises. Rubber tips do come off once in awhile, but it's easily fixable as said with tape or glue. As the fencer gain more experience, the transition from practice to electric blades aren't that bad, after awhile they just get used to the electric blades and never go back to practice blades ever again.

[Joe biebel]

If you must use metal blades, take a hot melt glue gun and squirt a small glob of glue into the plastic or rubber tip, before you insert the end of the blade into it. It will stay on.

I used a completely different approach that has worked very well for me. I used the plactic sets that Leon Paul sells (Zivkovik too, I think) These systems have many advantages. Chief among them is safety. The only "injury" w'eve had to date, was a kid that fell into a wall, while playing before the class started. So far, no cuts, no punctures and no bruises.

Secondly, the expense is minimal. If you are using metal weapons, I am also assuming that you are providing masks, underarm protectors and jackets and gloves at a minimum. With the plastic sets, you have: a chest pad with a collar, a plastic mask and of course the weapon. The students wear a long sleeved "sweat suit" and long pants and tennis shoes, I have also supplied wrist length gloves.

The reason I considered this system in the first place was the difficulty in getting a program started in our local middle schools that involved metal swords. The doors opened right up when I went to the plastic systems. I have had 6 students that "graduated" to my club, bought their own gear, with metal weapons. The transition with the weapon change was inconsequential. The plastic foils we use, have decent characteristics to them and there is little time needed to switch. Oh yeah, I got rid of the D*** buzzers.

Other than checking the equipment after each class, I have had no upkeep to date. The blades can be broken as one kid found out by "flicking the tip against the concrete wall. I would have to look up what my 15 sets and 2 extra weapons cost, but I do remember it being just a little more than half what standard metal kit would cost.