Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Bran · 03-26-2007, 12:52 PM

"SUBJECT: Coming threat to your business

Dear Sir,

Please be informed that FIE will issue its certificate to a Chinese maker in the near future. President of FIE-SEMI Jose Eduardo Correia Dos Santos is coming to China this April to finalize this issue.

It is a commen sense that Chinese maker is not capable to make FIE equipments at this moment.
Why this Chinese maker can do it is that they are getting strong support from President Jose and Mr.Wang Wei(one of FIE Executive Committee Members from China).
The strong support comes from a secret deal between the three of them.
The secret deal is that FIE and Chinese Fencing Federation will get a high percentage of commission from the profit of FIE equipments this Chinese maker sell in the future. It is a long-lasting deal.
With this incentive of the high-percentage commission, SEMI president Jose and Mr.Wang Wei will do whatever to help this Chinese maker to get registered with FIE certification although the so-called FIE equipments made by this Chinese maker is not good at all.
I know where they get the material for the mask bib and clothing. I used to test this material through one of my clients in UK. The fabric failed the 800N testing. I can get the material at anytime if you need.
Now you see the whole issue conducted by President Jose and Mr.Wang Wei is a deal under the table. It is not fair for other FIE listed manufacturer. It is no good for the sport of fencing itself.

To stop this, you should unite with all other FIE listed manufacturer and all resources that will support you.

To protect myself, I am not going to leave my name. And I am not going to be involved in this issue. But I can promise that all the above information is true.

Wish you success in stopping this un-qualified maker out of FIE circle.

We can keep in touch by email."

***Craig*** · 03-26-2007, 01:05 PM

a rumor from an anonomyous person who "doesn't want to get involved"

yeah...

There are already FIE products being produced in China and certfied. There are the FIE foil blades from BG and AFG and also the FIE line from AFG (made with fabrics from Europe.)

Craig

KD5MDK · 03-26-2007, 01:16 PM

Not to mention the reports of FIE mask shells for Uhlmann and Allstar.

darius · 03-26-2007, 01:29 PM

Quote:

There are already FIE products being produced in China and certfied.

Quote:

Not to mention the reports of FIE mask shells for Uhlmann and Allstar.

At the risk of being accused of Eurocentrism...

None of these things invalidate his original point. I'm not sure how many "Chinese makers" there are, but just because one is doing good work doesn't mean another won't.

darius

KD5MDK · 03-26-2007, 01:36 PM

Still, they are incompatible with this statement:

Quote:

It is a commen sense that Chinese maker is not capable to make FIE equipments at this moment.

keith · 03-26-2007, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darius

At the risk of being accused of Eurocentrism...

None of these things invalidate his original point. I'm not sure how many "Chinese makers" there are, but just because one is doing good work doesn't mean another won't.

darius

Indeed just because the Pauls celebrate the quality of British craftsman ship it does not mean they drive Austin allegros.

You can find dodgy manufacturers anywhere - the whole Chinese = shoddy attitude is a bit daft.

RPI Epeeist · 03-26-2007, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Still, they are incompatible with this statement:

I think you're mistaking the difference in the statement...

NO Chinese maker is capable...

vs.

THIS Chinese maker is in capable...

If you notice, this writer has a problem with "s"s at the end of some words in singular and plural compatibility between nouns and verbs. And sometimes no articles at all are used, just as he did in the sentence you quoted.

Notice, he refers to the company in question as "Chinese maker". So any time he says "Chinese maker" he's speaking specifically about the company in question. At least that's how i'm interpreting it.

KD5MDK · 03-26-2007, 02:04 PM

Possible, but if he is making an accusation about a particular maker, it can't be "common sense" that they are incapable of making conforming equipment. There would have to be something like evidence, which he claims to provide later.

Inquartata · 03-26-2007, 02:37 PM

Yeah, if I were making public allegations of unethical and very likely illegal conduct on the part of identifiable individuals I'd hide my identity, too. Not that he probably couldn't be traced anyway.

Looks very sketchy to me.

SJB · 03-26-2007, 08:35 PM

From what I can interpret the "Chinese Maker" is an equipment company about to make it's own equipment versus a company that makes equipment to Ulhman/Allstar's specifications.

Like in all aspects of manufacturing though, the Chinese excel in appropriating and then adapting methods and technologies from other countries so why should fencing equipment be any different?

I personally, won't buy Chinese gear. By that I mean the "Made in China! Cheap! Good quality!" stuff so often schucked by dealers at tournaments. I've tried my hand at that stuff and it's all P*S.

However, that also goes for "Made in Russia! Cheap! Good quality!" style fencing equipment as well.

Bottom line, you get what you pay for.

And, if this company can apparently manufacture FIE-standard gear, doubtlessly to coincide with the Bejing Olympics, then I'd give it a try but only after plenty of feedback from other fencers.

jjefferies · 03-26-2007, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJB

..
I personally, won't buy Chinese gear. By that I mean the "Made in China! Cheap! Good quality!" stuff so often schucked by dealers at tournaments. I've tried my hand at that stuff and it's all P*S.

I'll agree with this statement. My experience with Chinese made products has been very poor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJB

However, that also goes for "Made in Russia! Cheap! Good quality!" style fencing equipment as well.
Bottom line, you get what you pay for.
And, if this company can apparently manufacture FIE-standard gear, doubtlessly to coincide with the Bejing Olympics, then I'd give it a try but only after plenty of feedback from other fencers.

My experience with Russian or former Soviet made gear is better. STM, Viniti, I believe are both Russian/Ukranian and I've been satisfied with both. However, it is getting to the point that you can no longer trust some manufacturers name and if the original post is correct the FIE label may also be being compromised.

SJB · 03-27-2007, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjefferies

My experience with Russian or former Soviet made gear is better. STM, Viniti, I believe are both Russian/Ukranian and I've been satisfied with both. However, it is getting to the point that you can no longer trust some manufacturers name and if the original post is correct the FIE label may also be being compromised.

I agree about STM (Ukraine) and Vniti (Russia) being good stuff.

What I was referring to was the no-name Eastern European items made "in same factory" as STM/Vniti etc. It's made in a factory yes, but not those ones.

On your last point I sincerely hope the FIE holds the Chinese to the same standards as they do European manufacturers.

larkmaj · 03-27-2007, 12:42 AM

Incidentally, does anybody know when the next election for SEMI president is? I've heard that Mr Dos Santos might not win... This may fix the problem if what I have heard is accurate (and it probably is).

Grasshopper · 03-27-2007, 01:48 AM

That does it. I'm boycotting all Chinese food until this is resolved.

Grasshopper · 03-27-2007, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larkmaj

Incidentally, does anybody know when the next election for SEMI president is? I've heard that Mr Dos Santos might not win... This may fix the problem if what I have heard is accurate (and it probably is).

I actually thought Dos Santos was a computer language.

foildad · 03-27-2007, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

I actually thought Dos Santos was a computer language.

I thought he was a disciple of Carlos Castenada

fatfencer · 03-27-2007, 03:31 AM

pretty Sh**ty. We all know this.

I'm not buying allstar anymore because of it.

Look the history of new manufacture in Asia is pretty simple to follow.

Look at Hyundai. A new maker has little time to develop quality. They push price and similar labeling. Now Hyundai makes a much better car than the old days. It took them every bit of 20 years. Granted mask and clothing manufacture is much simpler but the principle is the same. Cut corners and lower prices.

Is China by and large going to skimp on quality? You bet yer sweet patootie they will. China has no problem stamping FIE on anything. Even if they spell it wrong.

Granted for simplicity's sake I am lumping Chinese manufacturing into one large group. But...name one thing they manufacture WELL besides people? I can't.

Don't buy anything Chinese that involves safety. Hell even with my current Allstar mask which I'm sure isn't chinese I really wanna get a pair of rec specs and then an additional pair of over goggles.

I can't wait till they start knocking off Leon Paul....bwahahahaha...but at first you'll know its a knockoff because itll be spelled 'Laon Pall'. Eventually they will get more sophisticated though.

Chinese manufacturers have no prob ripping off Microsoft.(I'm proud of them for that actually... GO LINUX!!!) Do you think that in this cottage industry that they won't become the overwheliming superpower? Guess again.

Unless of course fencers ban together and don't buy poorly made crap. Buy American. For god's sake Triplette has a Spectra manufacturer within 50 miles of its location. If we were to start manufacturing masks that were sturdy and lightweight then well...

Bottom line. France, Italy and the US now make the best Fencing Equipment in the world. Buy from them ONLY....unless its bodycords(LP).

FF

SJB · 03-27-2007, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

That does it. I'm boycotting all Chinese food until this is resolved.

Just don't boycott Japanese or you'll starve to death.

oso97 · 03-27-2007, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatfencer

pretty Sh**ty. We all know this.

I'm not buying allstar anymore because of it.

Look the history of new manufacture in Asia is pretty simple to follow.

Look at Hyundai. A new maker has little time to develop quality. They push price and similar labeling. Now Hyundai makes a much better car than the old days. It took them every bit of 20 years. Granted mask and clothing manufacture is much simpler but the principle is the same. Cut corners and lower prices.

Is China by and large going to skimp on quality? You bet yer sweet patootie they will. China has no problem stamping FIE on anything. Even if they spell it wrong.

Granted for simplicity's sake I am lumping Chinese manufacturing into one large group. But...name one thing they manufacture WELL besides people? I can't.

Don't buy anything Chinese that involves safety. Hell even with my current Allstar mask which I'm sure isn't chinese I really wanna get a pair of rec specs and then an additional pair of over goggles.

I can't wait till they start knocking off Leon Paul....bwahahahaha...but at first you'll know its a knockoff because itll be spelled 'Laon Pall'. Eventually they will get more sophisticated though.

Chinese manufacturers have no prob ripping off Microsoft.(I'm proud of them for that actually... GO LINUX!!!) Do you think that in this cottage industry that they won't become the overwheliming superpower? Guess again.

Unless of course fencers ban together and don't buy poorly made crap. Buy American. For god's sake Triplette has a Spectra manufacturer within 50 miles of its location. If we were to start manufacturing masks that were sturdy and lightweight then well...

Bottom line. France, Italy and the US now make the best Fencing Equipment in the world. Buy from them ONLY....unless its bodycords(LP).

FF

I'm going to disagree with this rant - strongly. Fencing clothing from Absolute Fencing Gear, is in my experience, as good, or better than many of its non-Asian competetors. The material is robust and strong. The construction, cut, and fit are all of first class. Its priced very affordably. Two of their lines - the "Nylon" line and the "Comfort" line in particular stand out for their high quality. Seams are finished, and do not come unravelled. Zippers are robust, strong and securely stiched to the fabric.

Their lame's are better than any other lame near their price point (yes, you have to take care of them properly). In particular, their new Ultra Light lame deserves special notice (again, provided you follow the care instructions!).

Masks are another place they have quality.

No, its NOT FIE level gear (and I don't have any experience with their FIE line, so I can't and won't comment). But its the line of clothing I purchase for use in my club, and the line of clothing I sell to my students. We've got "Comfort" line Absolute jackets that are now on their third generation, having been outgrown by two other kids, and they're still going strong. And any time I've had a problem or discovered a manufacturing defect (which happens only very early in a manufacturing cycle), its been taken care of, immediately, without hesitation, to my high satisfaction.

Now, for my fencers who want FIE level gear, I recommend Estoc clothing and Negrini masks. But that is a different level of fencer.

KD5MDK · 03-27-2007, 12:04 PM

Personally, when I wanted an FIE mask I saw how much cheaper Blue Gauntlet's was, trusted that the FIE stamp meant something, and have it tested and passed by the armorers at that NAC to verify. If it had failed, I would have of course demanded an exchange. But it passed fine, and has had no problems since.