03-24-2007, 03:43 AM
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#1 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 28
| reading the pools results
newbie fencing parent here..
I have a question in regards to reading the results after the pools.. example....
*1**2*3*4**5
1 * d4 d4 v5 v5
2 v5 * v5 v5 v5
3 v5 d3 * d4 v5
4 d2 d2 v5 * v5
5 d1 d0 d4 d2 *
(note: the * is only there to make the table come out correctly)
I understand the d = defeat and the v = victory (at least I hope I am correct)
but how do you read the rest of it?
PLEASE correct me if I am wrong....
#1 fenced #5 were the results...
fencer #1 scored 5 and fencer #5 scored 1?
#2 fenced #4 were the results...
fencer #2 scored 5 and fencer #4 scored 2?
if I'm not reading this correctly please show me the way!
also sticking with the results of the pools, the chart that is next to it with the following letters across the top V TS TR Ind PL
what do they mean?
V = victory?
TS = ?
TR = ?
Ind = ?
PL = Place
I appreciate any and all advice..  | 
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03-24-2007, 08:20 AM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: planet 9
Posts: 110
| Your right about the fencer vs. fencer part. The other part is:
V= victory
TS = touches the fencer scored
TR = touches against the fencers
Ind = Indicators. Subtract TR from TS to get this. Remember to subtract them in this order. If the TR is greater than the TS the Ind will be a negative number.
PL= place. Fencers in the pool are placed by amount of victories first. Indicators are used as tie breakers in victories. If victories and indicators are tied then touches scored will be the tie breaker.
Don't be shy about asking coaches, other fencers, other parents or event officials questions about this. Also keep track of the score as the bouts progress. It is the fencer's responsibility to bring any errors to the official's attention. That's why they should sign the score sheet after the pool is finished.
i'mnt
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Last edited by i'mnottelling; 03-24-2007 at 08:24 AM.
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03-24-2007, 10:46 AM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 512
| * 1*..*2.. 3*.. 4*..5.....V...TS....TR....Ind.....Place
1 *... d4..d4..v5..v5.....2...18...13... +5...... 2
2 v5...*....v5..v5.v5.....4.....20.....9...+11...... 1
3 v5..d3....*...d4.v5.....2....17...18......-1......3
4 d2..d2...v5...*..v5... 2....14...16......-2..... 4
5 d1..d0...d4..d2.*..... 0......7.....20... -13....5
For placement on the seed list after pools one would count the number of victories, then Touches Scored, then Touches Recieved. The indicator is TS minus TR.
The number of victories gives a percentage placement depending on the size of the pools.
If fencer 2 won the pool by having all victories they would have a win percentage of 100%. However, if another pool was only a four person pool then the fencer who won all of their bouts (getting 100%) would be seated lower than our fencer 2. Because the TS and TR would be a greater number than in the four person pool. Hence, you never want to be in a short pool.
Last edited by 4qtrs; 03-24-2007 at 10:56 AM.
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03-24-2007, 12:01 PM
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#4 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 28
| thank you!
thank you for you help in better understanding these tables.. | |
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03-24-2007, 08:47 PM
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#5 | | Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 76
| Do ask
I want to agree emphatically that you should feel free to ask any other parents or officials you can find about these questions. The only reason some of us know is because long ago we asked someone else. I vividly remember my first NAC (my son's first NAC, but my first as a fencing parent). I often didn't even know what questions to ask. I was overwhemed with how kind people were about telling me what I needed to know when it was obvious that I was floundering. If you ask questions, and learn the answers, you will be surprised how soon you will be "the one who knows" and even newer parents will be asking you questions. | |
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03-25-2007, 01:28 AM
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#6 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 28
| thank you
I am overwhelmed with everyones encouragement! yes, I do believe that fencers and parents of fencers are a tremendous help when it comes to asking questions and getting the answers..
this one though, was rather hard to get a clearer picture in my head until I posted it.
I am pleased that there also is this forum that I can come to and get some insight..
thank you all! | |
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03-25-2007, 11:46 PM
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#7 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 8,380
| Quote:
Originally Posted by 4qtrs  If fencer 2 won the pool by having all victories they would have a win percentage of 100%. However, if another pool was only a four person pool then the fencer who won all of their bouts (getting 100%) would be seated lower than our fencer 2. Because the TS and TR would be a greater number than in the four person pool. Hence, you never want to be in a short pool. | Well, the short-pool winner may or may not be seeded lower.
It's just harder.
4-0 +18 beats out 5-0 +15.
-B
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03-26-2007, 02:22 AM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,875
| Hi! Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt Well, the short-pool winner may or may not be seeded lower.
It's just harder.
4-0 +18 beats out 5-0 +15.
-B | That´s strange.
In Sweden, results from short and long poules are compared by:
1. Win percentage
2. Indicator/bouts fought
In Brad´s example, the short-poule winner would beat out the long-poule winner by having a indicator/match value of 4.5, instead of 3.0 for the long-poule winner.
Have a nice time!
Peter Gustafsson
Last edited by PeterGustafsson; 03-26-2007 at 02:25 AM.
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03-26-2007, 07:22 AM
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#9 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Angel, London
Posts: 2,372
| Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson Thatīs strange.
In Sweden, results from short and long poules are compared by:
1. Win percentage
2. Indicator/bouts fought
In Bradīs example, the short-poule winner would beat out the long-poule winner by having a indicator/match value of 4.5, instead of 3.0 for the long-poule winner.
Have a nice time!
Peter Gustafsson | No, that's strange.
I've never seen that done ever... | |
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03-27-2007, 01:36 AM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: MA
Posts: 7,202
| Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson In Brad´s example, the short-poule winner would beat out the long-poule winner by having a indicator/match value of 4.5, instead of 3.0 for the long-poule winner. | That actually makes a lot of sense. It would decrease the advantage of a large pool for the very good fencers, and the disadvantage for the very bad ones.
Have you experienced any disadvantages with that system? | 
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03-27-2007, 07:34 AM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,875
| Hi! Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbiggs That actually makes a lot of sense. It would decrease the advantage of a large pool for the very good fencers, and the disadvantage for the very bad ones.
Have you experienced any disadvantages with that system? | None that I have seen. Considering that fencers are rated by intensive, rather than extensive, properties none are to be expected.
Why is this system not used in USA? I thought that it was the self-evident tie-breaker - how can anyone consider using an extensive property when comparing differently sized systems?  Were they sleeping through the entire dimensional analysis class in physics?
Have a nice time!
Peter Gustafsson | |
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03-27-2007, 11:40 AM
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#12 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Angel, London
Posts: 2,372
| Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson Why is this system not used in USA? | because it's not used in the rest of the world, and the rules clearly separate the fencers by hits scores minus hits received. | |
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04-25-2007, 10:45 PM
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#13 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 17
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PeterGustafsson
i would say it's because most of us americans have a hard time spelling dimensional analysis let alone actually took the course :-) LOL | |
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04-26-2007, 03:37 AM
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#14 | | Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 76
| It's just a fancy notation for unit conversions, last I checked, first studied in Chemistry (we haven't covered it in physics at all).
Unless it's the other thing, that is.  Where you do, say, miles/hours * 1 hour/60 minutes and determine your answer will be miles/minutes. That's also dimensional analysis, and maybe the thing I'm thinking about that's done in chemistry is something else. | |
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04-27-2007, 03:42 PM
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#15 | | Member
Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NH, US
Posts: 73
| Another way to think about the chart, is that the fencer's names are usually recorded on the Y axis....
****** 1**2*3*4**5
1 Bob *********** V5
2 Joe
3 Suzie
4 Bill
5 Lucy *D1*********
All of Bob's scores will be in the same row as his name. All of his opponents' scores will be on their rows.
__________________ "They are the Nazgul, Ringwraiths,neither living nor dead
...They will never stop hunting you." J.R.R. Tolkien; The Fellowship of the Ring | |
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05-02-2007, 11:03 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: RPI (Troy, NY)
Posts: 903
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucifer It's just a fancy notation for unit conversions, last I checked, first studied in Chemistry (we haven't covered it in physics at all).
Unless it's the other thing, that is. Where you do, say, miles/hours * 1 hour/60 minutes and determine your answer will be miles/minutes. That's also dimensional analysis, and maybe the thing I'm thinking about that's done in chemistry is something else. | They're both the same thing.
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