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whoopie · 03-23-2007, 02:26 PM

So I was just wondering what everyone thought of Cadet/Junior fencing.

At my gym, the majority of the club are cadet fencers, so when JO's comes around, the gym is pretty empty.

It seems to me that the vast majority of serious fencers are these cadet/junior fencers. But what seems odd to me is that after college, or for some who aren't attending a NCAA fencing school, these compeitiors drop out of fencing for long periods of time, or for life.

What are your thoughts?

seven6ty · 03-23-2007, 03:09 PM

Quote:

What are your thoughts?

That this observation is true.

KD5MDK · 03-23-2007, 03:23 PM

I think many of them act like teenaged kids, which is somewhat less fun than many of their elders (and some of their juniors).

mlr2fence · 03-23-2007, 04:32 PM

People start/stop many activities during their life. For the cadet/juniors they have the luxury of not having to support themselves yet. Also, if they're truly serious fencers they have probably earned an A or B rating in which case the only NACs they can do are Div 1 once they age out of Jrs. They soon realize that if they can only fence once a week they're usually not competitive in Div 1 and eventually decide to save the $$ and just pursue fencing on a more recreational, local level (which is why it would be nice to have some type of NAC level event for this group--to keep them involved). Or, if they're used to reaching the upper echelons of cadet/jr NACs they may rather take a 'break' from fencing rather than see their skills/results slide downward.

Chafunkta · 03-23-2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoopie

. But what seems odd to me is that after college, or for some who aren't attending a NCAA fencing school, these compeitiors drop out of fencing for long periods of time, or for life.

This seems to be a prevalent theme on fencing.net, but only recently. Why is it that everyone is getting so concerned over this now? I'm not quite out of college yet, but I know when I do get out I'll definitely still be fencing. If anything it'll be easier to afford fencing because I'll have a nice job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlr2fence

People start/stop many activities during their life. For the cadet/juniors they have the luxury of not having to support themselves yet. Also, if they're truly serious fencers they have probably earned an A or B rating in which case the only NACs they can do are Div 1 once they age out of Jrs. They soon realize that if they can only fence once a week they're usually not competitive in Div 1 and eventually decide to save the $$ and just pursue fencing on a more recreational, local level (which is why it would be nice to have some type of NAC level event for this group--to keep them involved).

OOOOooooo. You bring up a good point. Fencing does seem to get more limited the higher you go. It requires more travel, more money, and offers less and less tournaments, at least as my ignorant eyes see it. Should there be more tournament opportunities for elite fencers?

JMcC · 03-23-2007, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoopie

It seems to me that the vast majority of serious fencers are these cadet/junior fencers. But what seems odd to me is that after college, or for some who aren't attending a NCAA fencing school, these compeitiors drop out of fencing for long periods of time, or for life.

What are your thoughts?

COLLEGE... college has (as it should) a major effect on many, many people's lives; their interests, their ambitions, you name it.

Soberin · 03-23-2007, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chafunkta

This seems to be a prevalent theme on fencing.net, but only recently. Why is it that everyone is getting so concerned over this now? I'm not quite out of college yet, but I know when I do get out I'll definitely still be fencing. If anything it'll be easier to afford fencing because I'll have a nice job.

OOOOooooo. You bring up a good point. Fencing does seem to get more limited the higher you go. It requires more travel, more money, and offers less and less tournaments, at least as my ignorant eyes see it. Should there be more tournament opportunities for elite fencers?

This is primarily a question of geography. If you live in an area of concentrated fencing talent, there is no problem continuing to fence at an elite level during and after college.

seven6ty · 03-23-2007, 09:40 PM

You mean, it's a matter of living in New York or not, basically?

Coldfire · 03-23-2007, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seven6ty

You mean, it's a matter of living in New York or not, basically?

I don't think its fair to say that you can only find high level fencing in NY. It may be the best and have the most concentrated number of elite fencers but you can find good fencers living elsewhere...I think.

D+F+P=Hadouken! · 03-23-2007, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coldfire

I don't think its fair to say that you can only find high level fencing in NY. It may be the best and have the most concentrated number of elite fencers but you can find good fencers living elsewhere...I think.

I think he was throwing that out as a generalization.

NY, LA, Oregon, ect ect ect.....

They're the same!

seven6ty · 03-23-2007, 10:13 PM

Eh, I don't know, I live in LA and I have to admit that it's not quite as high level as one might like. There are a handful of people, and they're usually spread out up and down the West coast. Especially if you're talking about an "elite" level, like was just mentioned previously. I don't think it's fairly "easy" to continue competing at a high/elite level in much of the rest of the country, outside of NY.

AndrewH · 03-24-2007, 12:45 AM

Let's use myself as an example. I'm in the worst possible position. I'm a 20 year old B, with no senior points. So there are only 4 national events I can fence each year (3 Div I NAC's plus IA sabre if I qualify). Less next year because of the early Div I championships.

Because I'm only a B, my seeding at NACs isn't great. I run the risk of traveling across the country to fence one pool. The thing I love most about fencing is competition, and I wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much if I didn't compete. But in my situation, competition is increasingly rare and unsatisfying. Once I graduate from college, I'll probably hang up my lame for good.

mlr2fence · 03-24-2007, 01:40 AM

What would keep you fencing?

AndrewH · 03-24-2007, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlr2fence

What would keep you fencing?

Maybe a div IA NAC? Something where I know I won't get destroyed before the the 32 and will be worth the trip?

Mo · 03-24-2007, 03:25 AM

Another issue for cadets and juniors is when they are younger there are older fencers to compete with them in practice. It is a lucky club that has older able fencers who are still there for accomplished cadets and juniors.

Once the next batch of high school seniors go off to college, the competition at the club gets weaker and weaker.

It is hard to stay competitive with no one who can give you a run for a victory. I see this happening at a lot of clubs. It is a sad situation. Either a fencer has to leave their coach and home to keep up with the competition or lose their edge.

The Momster

JMcC · 03-24-2007, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mo

Once the next batch of high school seniors go off to college, the competition at the club gets weaker and weaker.

Aren't there any high school juniors, sophomores and younger fencers working their way up? If not, then the club's not recruiting successfully.

mlr2fence · 03-24-2007, 10:51 AM

There can still be younger fencers working their way up but yet they are not of tremendous benefit to the older teens already at the 'top' in the club. Once those younger teens lose the 'top' (to graduation and college) then they become the top and its now struggle for them to stay sharp. As the saying goes: It can be easier to get to the top than it is to stay at the top.

I think the point is that to truly stay 'hot' in fencing its best to have fencers at your level and above to bout with on a regular basis. For clubs in fencing poor geographical areas many times this can only be done by going to large regional/national tourneys. This becomes more difficult due to time and money constraints of always having to travel to obtain this type of bouting. This is why the rich areas stay rich--the large and varied pool of top fencers draws in the up and comers and the cycle continues. This is why I find it impressive when there is a good fencer coming from a 'backwoods' area, realizing how difficult it is to achieve top skills with less than optimal training opportunities. Makes me wonder how good they could become if they were in a place like NY.

JMcC · 03-24-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlr2fence

There can still be younger fencers working their way up but yet they are not of tremendous benefit to the older teens already at the 'top' in the club. Once those younger teens lose the 'top' (to graduation and college) then they become the top and its now struggle for them to stay sharp. As the saying goes: It can be easier to get to the top than it is to stay at the top.

So how did the "older teens at the 'top' in the club" become "top" if not by fencing against the previous year's "older teens" and so on, and so on?

Why is it more of "a struggle" for the newly designated "top" than it was for those just departed?

Not addressing the occasional superstar, as long as the club can keep their membership intake reasonably level, there should always be a cohort of upcoming young fencers developing their skills to become the top teens in the club in their turn.

4qtrs · 03-24-2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Maybe a div IA NAC? Something where I know I won't get destroyed before the the 32 and will be worth the trip?

I think Div 1A NACs are a great idea. There are a large number of adult fencers who do travel to the Div II/III events. A Div 1A would help to keep that money path going and include all of the folks that are C's and above.

Peach · 03-24-2007, 11:30 AM

I've watched this happen at my club and at tournaments for years. Younger fencers come up, develop, go off to college, and may or may not come back. If they come back, they are either trying to maintain careers or they are struggling financially, or both. Their competition at the club is developmental fencers, with only a few top-quality competitors. They continue to try to train and compete but it takes an enormous amount of sacrifice--money, time, career, whatever--to keep up, let alone improve. Developing a career, raising a family, just paying the bills, is enough of a strain, and it takes intense commitment to overcome the lack of a support structure or any incentive to compete. At tournaments, I do often see those fencers return--for a while--but most of them just decide it isn't worth the effort. The problem is that a 20+ fencer, in most cases, does not have the competition, support, resources, or motivation to continue to get better.

This keeps getting raised as a topic by 20-up fencers, and then dismissed by those who aren't directly affected. For the sake of those fencers (and, if that's not enough motivation, for the development of high-quality international competition in the U.S.), we should take their comments seriously.