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Old 03-22-2007, 12:32 PM   #1
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Kendo v.s. Fencing

See exactly why fencing is way better than kendo!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ST1wRzfgmI
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:41 PM   #2
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While it's interesting to watch, it's no more a legitimate test than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYWgA...elated&search=
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Old 03-22-2007, 02:46 PM   #3
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Serious fencers have always wondered exactly how well their favored weapon would stand up against the Most Awesomest Sword History Has Ever Known, aka the katana. It's a legitimate question; we want to feel that our wirey little pokers could hold their own against several feet of a razor so sharp it could cut an atom in half. Unfortunately, rapiers (the closest historical approximation of current sport epees and foils) were used far away from traditional samurai terror lands, to say nothing of appropriate time periods. (Don't ask; I can barely remember what happened in my first marriage, much less grasp world history.)

The more pessimistic among us assume that the only way a guy with an epee/rapier could defeat his katana-wielding counterpart would be if he woke up really early in the morning, snuck into his oponent's room, and stabbed him many times in quick succession before the guy got out of bed. Alternately, Sir Epeeist could hope for a lucky shot in the heat of battle to drive his weapon tip up through the enemy's nostril and into his brain. Yeah, that could work. Otherwise the outcome looks pretty grim for the rapier -- one solid whack, and poof, he's left with a car antennea.

Not so, sayeth I! After virtually tens of minutes in deep research, I've finally solved the riddle. I've got conclusive proof that, yes, someone with a rapier could hold his own and even defeat the katana-ist.

Consider, for example, the most awesome Heishiro Mitsurugi, who trains at some martial arts academy called Soul Calibur (online resources suggest Soul Calibur had branches, or "arcades," across the United States in years past, usually found in shopping malls). According to his bio, he was born into a humble farming family in Bizen, Japan, but after hints of war(?) he began studying katana. He took up the name he carries today, which sorta translates to something meaning "calm but deadly guy wielding a divine sword." Cocksure of himself, eh?

Those who have studied his style say Misturugi has developed amazing vertical leap attacks that "can break opponents like dry spaghetti." At least one sage Soul Calibur expert noted, "The ladies get hot over the way he can contain opponents and snuff them out." Yet another expert said, "Love his hair" -- which may have nothing to do with his combat skills, but is worth mentioning anyway.

Lacking a solid background in the Eastern skills myself, I can only wonder at the techniques Misturugi employs. For example, one of his trademark moves somehow involves kicking in conjunction with a vertical attack "button." Additionally, Mitsurugi can take his KB combo and "pump his joystick down" at the same time for a KB2 combo, allowing him to recover much more quickly but trading off 75 points of damage for 50 points. ... Whatever the hell that means. I assume it's a black belt term.

Regardless of the esoteric lingo, everyone agrees Mitsurugi kicks serious ass. He's killed quite a few boss monsters. Boss monsters? Whatever. Probably a dojo ranking.

But then there's Raphael Sorel, who has faced Mitsu many times in Soul Calibur events. Raph was born to nobility in Rouen, France, where local folk still talk about the unnerving effect of his emotionless demeanor combined with almost supernatural rapier combat skills. His personal bio is filled with unbelievable details of cursed swords, insanity plagues and video arcade games, which only serve to further boost his combat intimidation factor.

Raph is able to frustrate almost any opponent -- including those with katanas, quarterstaffs, broadswords and rubber ducks -- with a series of pokes (aka "vertical attacks") and forward movement ("bumping the joystick forward"). In standard fencing terminology, I think the Soul Calibur adherents are referring to simple advance attacks, but it's a very odd way of saying so.

In true epeeist style, though, Raph has developed a wide range of attack options. His "22-88B" combo involves a quick retreat with a toe touch, which can confound an opponent so thoroughly that few are ready to counterattack. I also found this reference on a martial arts comparison blog: "Raph's best attack from the crouch-dash attitude is 236B, a very long-ranged attack (also executable from his Prep-C stance). This move's range and quick execution makes it one of Raph's most feared tactics."

OK, at this point I've got to admit: I don't know what the **** they're talking about. Doesn't sound like anything I've ever heard before in Eastern or Western martial arts. If Raph is even half as skilled as he seems to be, you'd think notes would include at least a passing reference to lunge or parry-riposte. Nope. Nada. Even his fleches involve "joystick pumping" and "button slamming" -- it reads like a frippin' porn movie script!

But maybe that's the point. Whatever Raph's personal lexicon, at least he's been able to work out a valid combat style to defeat a highly skilled katana practioner. He's outside the box. Totally non-traditional. Very sexy. And it's working.
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Old 03-22-2007, 10:24 PM   #4
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I enjoyed that post.
I wasted my 3rd year in university playing SoulCalibre (on Dreamcast). It lacked Raphael, but I focused on Cervantes. That said, I can usually beat anyone in the technical societiess using any character (some are also very good. The best of us all has since graduated).
Not true with SC2, since the controls map differently, but I can still beat most of the people.

However, even though I enjoyed the post, I am going to pick apart your introductory paragraph. Not to be mean, but to educate (I hope).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sciurus-Rex View Post
Serious fencers have always wondered exactly how well their favored weapon would stand up against the Most Awesomest Sword History Has Ever Known, aka the katana. It's a legitimate question; we want to feel that our wirey little pokers could hold their own against several feet of a razor so sharp it could cut an atom in half.
One of the most ignorant things anyone can do is state that one thing is above and beyond all others. It's pure opinion.
Yes, the Katana is a beautiful sword. And the forging of it was (and is) truly an art form. But too many people place too much weight on the folding process and the use of a low-carbon core/high carbon outer.
The folding took place to purify the metal, since they did not have the modern forging technologies we do today.
The use of a softer core was ingenious, I'll grant it that. But again it comes down to how the sword was intended to be used, and the methods of heat-treating available.
The implied comparison that other swords were not as well made is bunk. Differently made, yes. For different styles of use, yes. But there are not simple by comparison. They required just as much testing, tuning, and skill as did the Katanas.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sciurus-Rex View Post
Unfortunately, rapiers (the closest historical approximation of current sport epees and foils) were used far away from traditional samurai terror lands, to say nothing of appropriate time periods. (Don't ask; I can barely remember what happened in my first marriage, much less grasp world history.)
Actually, smallswords/colichemardes would be the closest. Smallswords developed in the late 17th century, and were double-time weapons. In fact, the shift to double-time from the single-time is part of what led to fencing becoming linear. The advent of double time made rearward retreats a strategic move, causing a more linear style to develop. The foil was originally a training sword for the smallsword.
The epee descended from the duelling epee, and was, to my understanding, unrelated to the foil.
Also, sabres have been is use even more recently.
So the rapier is not the closest historical counterpart we can draw on.


The perception of massive, unwieldy European weapons is the fault of fencing.
In the 18th century, fencing masters gave in to the need to portray their art as the "top of it's form". After all, it's newer, so thy figurd it must be better. Naturally, this was done by making unfavourable comparisons to older techniques. Which is where the knightly swords gained their "heavy and unwieldy" reputation.
In fact, the average weight of those swords is lypically less than 4 pounds.
Even the massive double-handed swords (German, Swiss, and Scottish for the better known ones) normally weighed 6 pounds or less.

Cheers, hope that clears up some misconceptions.

Oh, and I'd pwn you at SoulCalibre if I had Cervantes.
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Old 03-22-2007, 10:44 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Monk View Post
However, even though I enjoyed the post, I am going to pick apart your introductory paragraph. Not to be mean, but to educate (I hope). ...

One of the most ignorant things anyone can do is ...
Dude. Yeesh.
What's the smiley emoticon for "slap a sense of humor into you through the computer?"

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Old 03-22-2007, 11:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sciurus-Rex View Post
Dude. Yeesh.
What's the smiley emoticon for "slap a sense of humor into you through the computer?"
This one: Didn't you see it there?

On another note this thread is not extreme.
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Old 03-23-2007, 09:40 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA View Post
While it's interesting to watch, it's no more a legitimate test than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYWgA...elated&search=
For the first time ever, I think we are in total agreement
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