Directos and En garde

[MessiahFencing]

1) 9/10 directos i've had only say ready fence... Why don't they say en garde?

2) do you have to be at the en garde line? or can you be back more?

3) does your en garde have to be proper? or can you just do whatever?

I've been corrected / carded for both, but told it was ok by coaches and some directors..

like puting your blade strait up, vs bent in an engrade ( foil )

[erooMynohtnA]

1. It doesn't really matter. You're getting on guard anyway. It saves them a little breath.

2. I don't know. If I had to guess, I would say you have to start at your start line, give or take a couple inches.

3. Your on guard position doesn't have to be exact, but you can't be resting your weapon in a low line parry or holding your guard behind your head or something.

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by MessiahFencing

1) 9/10 directos i've had only say ready fence... Why don't they say en garde?

2) do you have to be at the en garde line? or can you be back more?

3) does your en garde have to be proper? or can you just do whatever?

I've been corrected / carded for both, but told it was ok by coaches and some directors..

like puting your blade strait up, vs bent in an engrade ( foil )

Because they are not doing their job correctly...

En garde is a command from the referee (or older term, the director) to the fencers; telling them to place themselves ready to fence.

The Referee than asks "Ready?" In other words, they are inquiring of the fencers if they are ready to fence. Before this question is asked, the fencers are to make themselves ready. That position is defined for all three weapons. For foil, in more or less sixte, tip up. Epee, arm out, typically sixte or seconde. Sabre calls for the weapon is be in thirde, period. The referee in general should wait for the fencers to reach this position before asking the ready question. Sometimes refs use delaying "Ready?" to remind fencers to get into position.

After either an affirmative answer or a reasonable delay with no answer, then the referee issues the command "Fence" or the equivalent in French. Note that the fencers have to be still before this command, ie, no bouncing in place.

While I have often seen this exchange ignored in bouts, this is what the rulebooks have defined as the correct sequence.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

2. I don't know. If I had to guess, I would say you have to start at your start line, give or take a couple inches.

Sorry, I didn't mean to skip this one. You are required to start no closer to the center than with your leading foot behind the "en garde" line, which is 2 metres from the center line. You can start anywhere behind that, as long as you are in front of the end of the strip. However, consider it this way, why would you start from a farther distance away from your opponent? Occasionally, you would want to do just that, but it should be done with a strong sense of the tactical advantages and disadvantages being created.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[keropie]

As I understand it, you cannot start significantly behind your appropriate place (i.e, the on guard line for the beginning of a bout). The reasoning simply being that it COULD be a tactical advantage at some point, and is therefor an illegal starting position (the on guard position being, theoretically, as neutral a position as is possible, neglecting space gained/lost by the fencers earlier in the 'touch').

Otherwise at 2 seconds remaining in the bout, wouldn't the fencer in the lead just start waaaay back? Or wouldn't lots of saber/foil fencers start far enough back to just toss up a point in line at the command fence?

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by MessiahFencing

1) 9/10 directos i've had only say ready fence... Why don't they say en garde?

Probably because they said previously:
"Attack is parried, riposte arrived. Score is now two to three, en guarde.
(wait 5 seconds for fencers to do so). Ready? Fence."

2) do you have to be at the en garde line? or can you be back more?

You have to be reasonably close to it. You don't have to have your toe on it, but more than a foot or two back is unreasonable. You do have to be wherever your referee tells you to be near there, if they give a specific instruction (that does not contravene the other rules).

3) does your en garde have to be proper? or can you just do whatever?

I've been corrected / carded for both, but told it was ok by coaches and some directors..

like puting your blade strait up, vs bent in an engrade ( foil )

Are you searching for ways to look like an idiot? Because all rules aside, that's what you're managing that way. Just come en guard relatively normally and save your unique poses for after the command fence.

Sabre calls for the weapon is be in thirde,

That's a position I've never heard of before.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by jfarmer

The Referee than asks "Ready?" In other words, they are inquiring of the fencers if they are ready to fence.

This is an interesting reminder b/c quite often it is voiced as a command rather than a question [and the command approach has been advocated here], but t.17 is quite clear on the matter.

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

That's a position I've never heard of before.

Sorry, my attention was divided between typing and eating... I meant Third or Tierce.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[bigdawg2121]

There's no real rule that says your hand must be in this position protecting this line really. While one does have to assume a relatively normal en guarde there are variations. Point of fact many saber fencers do not come en guarde in tierce but rather in something that's guard neutral or even in four. A lot of foil and epee fencers will choose to adopt a tierce-like blade position. Generally speaking the feet should be apart (you can't just bunch your feet together so that they're both on the line or start with one foot in front of the line and just bend your knee to get the toe down behind it) and the weapon should be presented toward your opponent somewhere.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by jfarmer

You are required to start no closer to the center than with your leading foot behind the "en garde" line, which is 2 metres from the center line. You can start anywhere behind that, as long as you are in front of the end of the strip.

No you can't.

t.17 2. The Referee places each of the two competitors in such a way that
the front foot of each is 2 metres from the centre line of the piste

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by downunder

No you can't.

t.17 2. The Referee places each of the two competitors in such a way that
the front foot of each is 2 metres from the centre line of the piste

I stand corrected. I do need to re-read the current rulebook yet again.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[downunder]

Originally Posted by jfarmer

I stand corrected. I do need to re-read the current rulebook yet again.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

No you don't, you're a coach. Same would apply if you were a fencer.

Ignorance of the current rules by the above is a major talking and humor point in the bar afterwards, please don't take this away from us!

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

There's no real rule that says your hand must be in this position protecting this line really. While one does have to assume a relatively normal en guarde there are variations. Point of fact many saber fencers do not come en guarde in tierce but rather in something that's guard neutral or even in four. A lot of foil and epee fencers will choose to adopt a tierce-like blade position. Generally speaking the feet should be apart (you can't just bunch your feet together so that they're both on the line or start with one foot in front of the line and just bend your knee to get the toe down behind it) and the weapon should be presented toward your opponent somewhere.

Does the rulebook state that you must come en garde in sabre in tierce? No. What is stated is this:

Originally Posted by Referee's Manual, United States Fencing Association Fencing Officials Commission, July 2005

The question of a "correct" on guard position is no longer open to interpretation. Referees are to have the fencers take the position indicated by the drawings in the Rules Book that show the targets for each weapon. Also remember - "at foil and sabre no fencer may come on guard with his point in line." The key to the proper starting of the bout is to make sure that the fencers are completely still. A fencer may not argue with a referee on what a correct on guard position is nor about remaining immobile until the command “Fence” is given.

And this:

Originally Posted by FENCING RULES; September 2006 Edition; United States Fencing Association, Inc.

t.17
Competitors come on guard when the Referee gives the order ‘On guard’, after which the Referee asks, ‘Are you ready?’. On receiving an affirmative reply, or in the absence of a negative reply, he gives the command for fencing to commence with the word ‘Fence’.
The fencers must come on guard correctly and remain completely still until the command ‘Fence’ is given by the Referee. In foil and saber fencers may not come on guard in the ‘in line’ position.

When you examine the pictures referenced in the Referee Manual for sabre, well it looks a lot like a foilist. I would argue that third or fourth would be entirely acceptable, but extending the point and/or the arm would not be. (I doubt that fifth, first, or second would be accepted either.)

In respect to epee, they can come en garde in third, or second, whatever... But foilist can't. To me, the referenced picture is clearly looks like he's in sixth.

And yeah, the pictures do show that the fencer's feet should be in something that's fairly close to a traditional stance.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[Joe biebel]

Originally Posted by MessiahFencing

1) 9/10 directos i've had only say ready fence... Why don't they say en garde?

2) do you have to be at the en garde line? or can you be back more?

3) does your en garde have to be proper? or can you just do whatever?

I've been corrected / carded for both, but told it was ok by coaches and some directors..

like puting your blade strait up, vs bent in an engrade ( foil )

If the fencers are already enguarde, there is no need to say it. However, I have noticed a great deal of "slide" in this area. Personally, I think it is important to make sure both fencers are enguarde and motionless before the "ready" and "fence" are spoken. I know it can take an extra second or two, but it is important to make sure one of the fencers does not get a jump on the other by moving before the command to fence. The command "enguarde" helps this a little when one of the fencers is not enguarde. The other important detail that even some highly rated referees will do poorly is to not have a small gap between the "ready" and "fence" command for the fencers to check their blades (for curvature) and to respond. It is oftenly stated as a single word by some refs "readyfence".

[Chafunkta]

Originally Posted by jfarmer

... That position is defined for all three weapons. For foil, in more or less sixte, tip up. Epee, arm out, typically sixte or seconde. Sabre calls for the weapon is be in thirde, period. The referee in general should wait for the fencers to reach this position before asking the ready question. Sometimes refs use delaying "Ready?" to remind fencers to get into position.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

Where did you get this information? I've only seen the specific on guard position described in the Referee Handbook, which says to use the pictures in the rule book.

My biggest problem is the picture of the epee fencers. For some reason, I think the fencer on the right has quite an advantage over the left if fencing started this way.


Oh, and "thirde," is just a cool way to pronounce "third." It kinda makes it sound french, a little like "Joe Dirte."

[RITFencing]

I thought the pretentious way to say "third" was "tierce."

[KD5MDK]

You can't use the pictures as absolute references, because no one will allow you to come en guarde with tips crossed...

[Allen Evans]

The pictures (at least in the American rule book) are not to be used as a guideline for placing fencers on guard. The rules state that the fencers must come on guard "correctly". That seems to vary from referee to referee. Most will accept a rough fencing stance and blades in the highline position with no movement. However I was once asked -- at a NAC! -- to lift up my back arm in a classic "on guard" stance (I haven't seen that referee in a while. I wonder why?)

The rules specifically state that the referee must place the fencers "On Guard" (see t.17) using that phrase.

Allen

[Chafunkta]

Originally Posted by Referee Handbook by Bill Oliver

The question of a "correct" on guard position is no longer open to interpretation. Referees are to have the fencers take the position indicated by the drawings in the Rules Book that show the targets for each weapon.

What Rules Book is Bill referring to here? We've established that pictures in the USFA Rules Book should not be considered the correct on guard position. I was wondering if there's some other (possibly FIE) rule book that Bill's referring to.

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

because no one will allow you to come en guarde with tips crossed...

Kinda hard to do that while still applying the 2m from the center line rule, too.