Fixing a fleche

[IHateMrPotatohead]

I gave a lesson on fleches (epee) and how to defend against them to my adult class the other night. Most of the 5 or 6 people there had never done one before, but had seen them done by others.

I had them advance up to me, beat my blade, extend their arm and fleche at me. I had on woman in particular that had one problem in particular. She would advance up to me, beat my blade and extend, and then pull her arm back toward her as she took off in her fleche.

I tried several explanations in order to get her to keep her arm out, but none of them worked. Any other innovative ideas or suggestions?

[Adler]

Originally Posted by IHateMrPotatohead

I had them advance up to me, beat my blade, extend their arm and fleche at me. I had on woman in particular that had one problem in particular. She would advance up to me, beat my blade and extend, and then pull her arm back toward her as she took off in her fleche.

Why are you over complicating things? If 5 out of 6 of your pupils have never done a Fleche what makes you think that they'll be able to have the coordination and timing to be able to beat Fleche from mobility?

Try and look for a logical progression for teaching the fleche and avoid focusing solely on the final action.

Using the forward crossover as an inductive exercise is very useful for teaching the Fleche.
Once your pupils have mastered the fleche from the en garde position you can then go on to do exercises like flecheing through a skipping rope from a stationary en garde, walking on the spot in the en garde and whilst keeing distance.

I would suggest getting a copy of Laszlo Szabo's Fencing and the Master and Lukovichs Fencing Modern International Style as they both have a number of exercises for teaching the Fleche.

[RITFencing]

I would first work on the fleche without the beat. Have her extend the arm, then fleche, with a pause in between. Once she can do that (shouldn't take long) try to eliminate the pause. Tell her to start the fleche just as the arm stops, to keep the hand in a realitvely constant forward motion.

Another execise I find works well is to put my hand out in front of them and have them felche to tag it. Once they start moving (or once I lift my hand) I start to move backwards. They generally won't hit it unless they get that hand out first. Remind them that they want to tag the hand as soon as possible, not chase it down the strip.

Hope that helps.

[chiiluver]

One of the ways I've learned how to fleche back when I've never used it was this. My friend would hold the tip of my blade, and I had to extend. When I'm fully extended, he pulls the blade firmly until I get to the crossover step. It really gave me the sense of "flying forward" with my arm straight. After that, all I had to do was imagine that the other person is pulling my point to their body when they leave an opening. I hope this sorta answers your question.

[Fechter1]

Originally Posted by chiiluver

One of the ways I've learned how to fleche back when I've never used it was this. My friend would hold the tip of my blade, and I had to extend. When I'm fully extended, he pulls the blade firmly until I get to the crossover step. It really gave me the sense of "flying forward" with my arm straight. After that, all I had to do was imagine that the other person is pulling my point to their body when they leave an opening. I hope this sorta answers your question.

That's what I do. Demonstrate the correct feeling (motion), and tell them to duplicate.
If they're having trouble with that, teach them in parts. First, lean forward until you tip over. At that point, just bring your back foot across in front to catch you. Then add the front leg snap to push off. Can be done with or without the tip pull.

Another way I saw just recently: Coach with punching target, student extends to make contact with the target. Coach then maneuvers the target, while (stationary) student leans to maintain contact. At some point, at the extreme lean, coach pulls target, and student pushes off with legs. Motion looked very natural.

[Cookeit]

I need some help ending my fleche(foil).
I do everything right until the end. I am not quite sure what to do with my weapon after I hit. If I keep it where it is, I will just impale them.

Are you supposed to slide off , and keep the tip at the same height as were you hit them?

I know I haven't really worded this right, but I hope you guys understand it.

[RITFencing]

Though it doesn't matter as much once you've actually hit, I try to let my elbow and shoulder loosen up as I run past, which will let my weapon and arm pass over my head (I tend to run to the weapon side.) If I run off to the other side, I sometimes pull the arm back after I hit. I also sometimes just stop the fleche, pull the arm away for a remise just in case the first one didn't hit or turn with the weapon (generally if i am running to the non weapon side.)

In general, though, the first one. I loosed up my arm and just let the physics of everything take my weapon up and over my head, after which it pretty much detaches itself from the target.

[DenverFencing]

1. Fencer in on guard
2. Have them lean forward with the arm extended
3. Extend your hand, handshake with the fencer and pull them forward lightly.

They will do the fleche naturally with the arm extended. Hope that helps. You can do this with a whole fencing class.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by DenverFencing

You can do this with a whole fencing class.

This requires many hands....

-B

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

This requires many hands....

-B

Obviously, they have recruited Dr. Octavius (sp?) as a fencing instructor...

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[jfarmer]

Interestingly, I teach the defense against the feche long before I teach the actual doing of it.

I've tried teaching the actual feche with several of the methods that have been mentioned, and to some extent, they all more or less work. One issue I keep running into is getting fencers to delay their front leg push late enough. Most of them want to push off with it before swinging the rear leg forward, thus resulting in a feche with a major ballistic arc, than a straight arrow flight.

As to what to do after scoring the hit (assuming that it lands), I have been teaching them to relax their arm into a defensive parry position. eg, leave the tip against the opponent, and bring the forte & guard between yourself and the opponent, usually seconde or prime, depending on which side they are feching to, the hand of the opponent, etc.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[RITFencing]

As far as teaching defense against a fleche, I try to teach it as not very different from defense against any other attack. Really, a fleche is just another way to collapse distance and/or change the tempo of an action. It's a very sudden, agressive way to do this, and it is difficult to abort, but that could be true of a long, reckless advance lunge as well. I try to teach students to keep moving so that they can control what rate the distance is collapsed and then choose their action(s) accordingly from there, jsut like any other sort of attack. Seems to work ok for me.

[Chafunkta]

I find it's helpful to use a short rope (jump rope works fine) and pull the student along, letting them feel the pull from their arm, then the lean of their body/shoulders, and then when they feel like they're going to fall from the lean, they push with the front foot and swing the rear foot over in order to stay on their feet.

The best exercise I can recommend for the fleche is to get next to a pool, put your toes slightly over the edge, and then do a fleche that basically makes you fall flat on your face in the water. It really lets you feel that push you can get from your front leg, and gets you comfortable with getting as much lean (as straight as an arrow) as you can. Of course, once you apply this to a land-fleche, you have to figure out that stop-myself-from-falling thing. This is probably best for the 12-20 category, though, as some of the adults may not enjoying the whole flat-on-your-face-into-water sensation.

Try it at the next club pool party!

Originally Posted by Cookeit

I need some help ending my fleche(foil).
I do everything right until the end. I am not quite sure what to do with my weapon after I hit. If I keep it where it is, I will just impale them.

Are you supposed to slide off , and keep the tip at the same height as were you hit them?

I know I haven't really worded this right, but I hope you guys understand it.

Once you hit (or get parried) and are passing, move your arm into a prime position, to lock out the outside of your target. AKA Listen to John Farmer.

[jbenjamin]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

I need some help ending my fleche(foil).
I do everything right until the end. I am not quite sure what to do with my weapon after I hit. If I keep it where it is, I will just impale them.

Are you supposed to slide off , and keep the tip at the same height as were you hit them?

I know I haven't really worded this right, but I hope you guys understand it.

you should always fleche towards the none-weapon side for foil (for righties). For lefties, either you fleche on their weapon side or none weapon side. BEFORE you go off to the side, you should hit them first though.