Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

seltzerwater · 03-08-2007, 10:57 PM

For those that have been fencing longer than I have,,,,,

Are most directors former college fencers, coaches or current college fencers at National events? I see posts encouraging parents to get certified and referee but I wonder how that is possible since they have never fenced?

Has anyone come across a director that has not fenced but has taken the test/class to become certified and ultimately directs a bout? Just curious how the cycle works.

Peach · 03-08-2007, 11:35 PM

A number of epee referees I know started as parents. Quite a few of my acquaintances started refereeing as junior or cadet-age fencers (a few even younger) because many clubs encourage kids to learn to referee I started refereeing a couple of years after I started fencing, as a veteran. A number of referees were former high-level national or international competitors, and there are many coaches who also referee.

fencerbill · 03-08-2007, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seltzerwater

For those that have been fencing longer than I have,,,,,

Are most directors former college fencers, coaches or current college fencers at National events? I see posts encouraging parents to get certified and referee but I wonder how that is possible since they have never fenced?

Has anyone come across a director that has not fenced but has taken the test/class to become certified and ultimately directs a bout? Just curious how the cycle works.

A majority of referees at NACs are current or former fencers. But not all were college fencers since there are only a relatively small number of colleges that have fencing. There is a strong correlation between fencing and college graduates, age considered, but not all of the graduates are from colleges that have teams.

There are probably few current college fencers refereeing at NACs because of the conflicts with team schedules and the time demands of being at college. If they compete at a NAC, they are most likely to be in and out. Not arriving the night before the first day and staying through the last event on the last day. Maybe at Summer Championships.

Yes, there are quite a few coaches who referee at NACs, particularly the high level referees. But, at a NAC, the majority of coaches are busy coaching, not refereeing.

I suspect that there are a number of parents who referee but have never competed at NACs. But they may well have taken a fencing class or two and then have branched into refereeing but not into National event competing.

You are more likely to see current college fencers who referee at local events rather than at NACs. A good way to pick up some spending money. We hire quite a few of them here in the New England Division.

downunder · 03-09-2007, 06:27 AM

I'm a full time referee... and used to fence at quite a high level.

I'd imagine it would be significantly more difficult to become even vaguelly competant as a referee having not fenced.

notalent · 03-09-2007, 10:16 AM

George Porter is a parent who doesn't fence but refs at NACs. I think he has a 4 in epee and a 6 in foil.

oiuyt · 03-09-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by downunder

I'm a full time referee... and used to fence at quite a high level.

I'd imagine it would be significantly more difficult to become even vaguelly competant as a referee having not fenced.

I thought the UK minimally paid referees. How is it possible to do it full-time?

-B

IanSerotkin · 03-09-2007, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oiuyt

I thought the UK minimally paid referees. How is it possible to do it full-time?

-B

I think he means that he no longer competes, and only referees.

IanSerotkin · 03-09-2007, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seltzerwater

For those that have been fencing longer than I have,,,,,

Are most directors former college fencers, coaches or current college fencers at National events? I see posts encouraging parents to get certified and referee but I wonder how that is possible since they have never fenced?

Has anyone come across a director that has not fenced but has taken the test/class to become certified and ultimately directs a bout? Just curious how the cycle works.

Like anything else, it's a mix of things. The teenagers/twentysomethings who still compete and start refereeing to help pay for travel expenses; the coaches who referee when they have free days; the retired fencers who want to give back to the sport; the parents who want a higher level of involvement in the sport; the recent immigrants who need to find employment pronto to establish a foothold for permanent residency.

In response to the specific question about referees who have never fenced, the "barrier to entry" is much lower in epee than in foil and sabre. I can think of a handful of non-fencers who now referee at the national level in epee, but I'm racking my brain trying to think of any in foil or sabre. The best I can come up with are a few epee fencers who never fenced foil and/or sabre but now referee it.

downunder · 03-09-2007, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oiuyt

I thought the UK minimally paid referees. How is it possible to do it full-time?

-B

as Ian says...

mind you its getting better in the UK. For the better referees its a per diem of £50 on top of Dinner Bed Breakfast and travel at the big competitions we referee at.

fencerbill · 03-09-2007, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by downunder

as Ian says...

mind you its getting better in the UK. For the better referees its a per diem of £50 on top of Dinner Bed Breakfast and travel at the big competitions we referee at.

Which is pretty comparable, except for ECAC and perhaps some other colleges.

Purple Fencer · 03-09-2007, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notalent

George Porter is a parent who doesn't fence but refs at NACs. I think he has a 4 in epee and a 6 in foil.

Beat me to it on George.

downunder · 03-10-2007, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Beat me to it on George.

What is a 4 or a 6 comparable to? What sort of level at national events would you expect him to referee?

IanSerotkin · 03-10-2007, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by downunder

What is a 4 or a 6 comparable to? What sort of level at national events would you expect him to referee?

From the US FOC website (www.fencingofficials.org):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Referee Ratings

The following system has been established by the FOC and approved by the USFA Board of Directors for the rating of USFA referees, and is based on a 10 level scale, with 1 being the highest:

A level 10 rating requires a passing score on the written exam and a demonstrated proficiency at a level equivalent to the finals of an Unclassified competition.

A level 9 rating requires a passing score on the written exam and a demonstrated proficiency at a level equivalent to the finals of an E rated competition.

A level 8 rating requires a passing score on the written exam and a demonstrated proficiency at a level equivalent to the finals of a D rated competition.

A level 7 rating requires a passing score on the written exam and a demonstrated proficiency at a level equivalent to the finals of a C rated competition.

A level 6 rating requires a passing score on the written exam and a demonstrated proficiency at a level equivalent to the finals of a B rated competition.

A level 4 rating requires a demonstrated proficiency at a level equivalent to the Direct Elimination round of 128 of an Open North American Cup competition.

A level 3 rating requires a demonstrated proficiency at a level equivalent to the Direct Elimination round of 32 of an Open North American Cup competition.

A level 2 rating requires a demonstrated proficiency at a level equivalent to the Direct Elimination round of 8 of an Open North American Cup competition.

A level 1 rating requires a demonstrated proficiency at any level of an Open North American Cup competition.

D'Art · 03-10-2007, 11:12 AM

So whyat's a level 5 ref?

IanSerotkin · 03-10-2007, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D'Art

So whyat's a level 5 ref?

Heh, looks like there's an omission on the website. From another source:

A level 5 rating requires a passing score on the written exam and a demonstrated proficiency at a level equivalent to the first round of an Open North American Cup competition.

KD5MDK · 03-10-2007, 01:50 PM

It should also be noted that ratings lag significantly below the level of bouts a referee will often do. For example, I have a 4 in Epee, and I've done Round of 24 bouts, which is substantially able the round of 128 it describes.

On a slightly related note, Jon Moss has done multiple World Cup finals in sabre and has a "2" rating...

fencerbill · 03-10-2007, 04:09 PM

The whole membership of the FOC has to vote on anything higher than a 5, which holds up things a little.

The USFA numerical system is not congruent with the FIE system which has A and B and C for provisional referees.

KD5MDK · 03-10-2007, 04:41 PM

Actually, they only have to vote on 3s and higher. I believe a single FOC can award a 4.

Also, there are no longer any FIE 'C' referees.

oiuyt · 03-11-2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

It should also be noted that ratings lag significantly below the level of bouts a referee will often do. For example, I have a 4 in Epee, and I've done Round of 24 bouts, which is substantially able the round of 128 it describes.

The rating isn't what a referee is capable of (or will be used in). Per the definitions, it's the level at which the referee has "demonstrated proficiency". This requires using referees in bouts above the level dictated by their current rating (or rather having a situation where any ratings can be improved). Also note that not all bouts of round X are created equal. There are L32 bouts that can be more difficult than L12 bouts. And that is taken into account both with the assignments and with the evaluation of the referee.

And, no, the ratings definitions aren't always followed particularly well. There are a number of badly over- or under- rated referees (including amongst those who referee often enough that mere lack of exposure cannot be blamed). The majority of "5" level referees would not make me happy if I saw them showing up to officiate a D1 pool in which I was fencing (any weapon, not merely in sabre). That level, at least, has undergone significant dilution.

DU: a list of current USFA referees (and their ratings in each weapon) can be found at http://foc.askfred.net/Referee. People with no rating listed in any weapon have presumably attended a referee clinic but not yet passed the written tests.

-B

notalent · 03-12-2007, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oiuyt

And, no, the ratings definitions aren't always followed particularly well. There are a number of badly over- or under- rated referees (including amongst those who referee often enough that mere lack of exposure cannot be blamed). The majority of "5" level referees would not make me happy if I saw them showing up to officiate a D1 pool in which I was fencing (any weapon, not merely in sabre). That level, at least, has undergone significant dilution.

-B

No doubt a certain 4 could cause some consternation

Considering that the FOC members are the folks giving out the 5 and 4s it would seem to be a bit more even. I would say that the evaluation process for a