Reasonable expectation for coaching at national events

[fencerdadsez]

Not every club has 15 A level fencers. Some have one, or none, but maybe a B or two or event a couple of good Cs. Hopefully, the club is trying to progress to better fencing for all its members.

Suppose you are the parent of the 1 or 2 kids that is consistantly qualifying to go to national events and doing reasonably well (top 64 pretty consistantly, top 32 occassionally).

Should you expect your kid's coach to be there? Always? Even if your kid is the only student who is at the event?

Should you expect to pay 100% of the coaches cost, because your kid is the only one there? Is it your fault that the coach has no other fencers that good?

Are there other strategies for strip coaching that work in a situation like that?

Assume that changing coaches or clubs is not an option.

[oiuyt]

Every situation is different.

That said, if you AREN'T paying for 100% of the expenses for the coach to be at the tournament, where is the rest of the money coming from? The club members who aren't at the tournament should subsidize it? The coach should be paying his/her own way? (in which case it's merely a pass-through and is funded either by the athlete or subsidized by the group that pays the coach in the first place).

Note that direct expenses are rarely the only ones incurred by a coach (or anyone else) travelling to a national tournament. Time/opportunity costs should also be factored in, and can be significantly above actual out-of-pocket costs. Many coaches will discount these indirect costs, some completely, others partially.

What level athlete are we discussing? D1 senior? Y10? Vet-50?

-B

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by fencerdadsez

Not every club has 15 A level fencers. Some have one, or none, but maybe a B or two or event a couple of good Cs. Hopefully, the club is trying to progress to better fencing for all its members.

Suppose you are the parent of the 1 or 2 kids that is consistantly qualifying to go to national events and doing reasonably well (top 64 pretty consistantly, top 32 occassionally).

Should you expect your kid's coach to be there? Always? Even if your kid is the only student who is at the event?

Should you expect to pay 100% of the coaches cost, because your kid is the only one there? Is it your fault that the coach has no other fencers that good?

Are there other strategies for strip coaching that work in a situation like that?

Assume that changing coaches or clubs is not an option.

Oiuyt covered all the bases pretty well. But it is one of those things where you have to think: "Should the coach have to pay his own way to go somewhere to essentially work?" That just wouldn't make sense. But yeah, it can get expensive.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by fencerdadsez

Should you expect to pay 100% of the coaches cost, because your kid is the only one there?

Is it your fault that the coach has no other fencers that good?

Are there other strategies for strip coaching that work in a situation like that?

1) yes, or almost 100%, depending on the definition of "cost". i'd like to think that most coaches are pretty reasonable about this type of thing.
2) no, but is it necessarily the coach's fault, either?
3) yes. since you sound a lot like a dad who travels with your kid, learn to help coach your kid yourself. will you be as good as a "real" coach, no, probably not. but it will possibly be better than nothing.

[fencerdadsez]

I asked three questions and got two answered.

It seems I should expect to pay 100% of the travel and incidental costs, and perhaps not much more.

I'd like to learn to coach but can't follow the action even after a couple of years of watching from the sidelines. I do notice some things (distance, moving, breathing) and I can help there. I don't have enough time to really "study" or take coaching lessons. I am there for my fencer.

We're talking Cadet/Junior/Div 1 these days

The question that was not answered was actually the most important to me. Should I expect the coach to be there, always (or nearly always)? What I observe is that most of the better fencers have a strip coach. .

With respect to paying the cost, in every business, you don't charge your first customer the cost of setting up your store. In fact, you almost always charge as if the store was a going concern. It's part of the cost of establishing the business. I think I got the "right" = customary answer, so this doesn't matter, but it is why I asked it in the first place.

[seven6ty]

I think if you paid 100% of the coach's expense, that's a resonable expectation, that they would be there to work with the kid pretty much all of the time. If you're paying 50 %, obviously you'd probably expect them to be around half of the time, and off working with another kid the other half of the time.

But that's just me, you'll find that coachs vary significantly in the amount of enthusiasm they have, which is also dependent upon their student. If a coach is there all of the time and trying to work with the kid, but the kid is just ignorant about it and blowing off all of the coach's advice, I probably wouldn't want to stick around 100% of the time either.

[oiuyt]

I think he's asking should a fencer (or parent of one) expect the coach to always be available to go to every event.

Sure, as long as coaching your child is the only thing going on in the coach's life.

Some coaches attend nearly every event. Others never attend an event (hard to imagine how they can maintain currency without seeing the fencing, not to mention knowing what the athletes need most in their development in this case, but it certainly happens). Some clubs have multiple coaches, which allows for better athlete coverage, while still accounting for life concerns outside of the tournament. Some coaches only attend the largest/most significent events.

Again, the answer is "it depends".

Going to tournaments is not the primary business. It's an extremely resource-consuming side part of it that most would consider an essential part of the overall whole. The first few students presumably were not charged the full cost of setting up the club. But for services, yes, in general life we DO expect those consuming services to pay for the full cost of the services.

Many new businesses start by operating at a loss. It is extremely unlikely that many fencing coaches could afford to swallow travel costs to tournaments until building a large enough stable of athletes that lower per-person costs cover all expenses (and enough to repay the initial loss period). And I'm not sure that you'd really want to work with a coach who treats your child(ren) that way.

-B

[foildad]

Originally Posted by fencerdadsez

The question that was not answered was actually the most important to me. Should I expect the coach to be there, always (or nearly always)? What I observe is that most of the better fencers have a strip coach.

If you're asking if it's reasonable for you to expect the coach to be willing to attend any national tournaments your kids attend, my opinion is yes. If the coach is trying to grow a competitive club they should be willing to make themselves available for stripside coaching at national events for any student willing to go, so long as the coaches expenses are covered.

If you're asking if your kids would benefit from their coach being there, the answer is yes, assuming their coach is competent and they have a good relationship. And yes, the better fencers definitely have their coaches there.

That being said, it can also be beneficial for kids to fence in tournaments without the coach there. It helps them learn to think for themselves on the strip and can be a big confidence booster. But I don't think a national event is the best time or place for a kid to go it alone.

Oh, and as for the suggestion that you try learn to coach the kids, I'd give that a big thumbs down. Let the coach be the coach and let the parents be the parents.

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by fencerdadsez

I asked three questions and got two answered.

It seems I should expect to pay 100% of the travel and incidental costs, and perhaps not much more.

I'd like to learn to coach but can't follow the action even after a couple of years of watching from the sidelines. I do notice some things (distance, moving, breathing) and I can help there. I don't have enough time to really "study" or take coaching lessons. I am there for my fencer.

We're talking Cadet/Junior/Div 1 these days

The question that was not answered was actually the most important to me. Should I expect the coach to be there, always (or nearly always)? What I observe is that most of the better fencers have a strip coach. .

With respect to paying the cost, in every business, you don't charge your first customer the cost of setting up your store. In fact, you almost always charge as if the store was a going concern. It's part of the cost of establishing the business. I think I got the "right" = customary answer, so this doesn't matter, but it is why I asked it in the first place.

But you are not asking for something that is part "setting up a business." You are asking for a specific "custom" service. When I did consulting in software project management & network design, if a client required me to go somewhere at his beck and call, then I looked at the contract we agreed to and charged him accordingly. If it was already built into the contract, then I went. If not, then he paid my time and expenses from leaving my office until returning to my office.

It sounds like you are paying club membership fees and expecting it to include a "custom" service, eg, attending national events solely to strip coach your child. If the contract you have with the club and/or coach includes strip coaching at national events as part of the fees you are paying, then yes, you should expect the coach to be there. But somehow, I doubt that is the case. (I wouldn't coach with a contract like that unless it was a school team or something similar.)

In the end, it comes down to TANSTAAFL. If the coach goes to a national event, someone pays for his travel, his room & board. If the club pays it, then all the members are contributing to your child's success. That also means that the coach probably isn't going to be available to coach your child 100% of the time. If you expect the coach to cover his own expenses, then you should expect to see those costs to show up as part his fees for lessons, etc. And again, he might not be available to your child 100% of the time. If I'm at a tournament where one of my students is fencing, unless they are paying me to be there, then either I'm there to fence, I came to coach on my own dime, or I'm being paid to be there as a referee. If I'm there to coach "on my own dime", then the fencer should be appreciative and understand that I'm investing myself in their progress. If I'm there to fence or referee, then that's what comes first.

As to what you could expect to pay, reasonable would be travel expenses including room & board for the time away, and either a set fee for the coach's time during the events, or a per bout fee. Can it be expensive? Yes. You are more or less hiring the coach exclusively for the length of the tournament and transporting him there and back. Is it worth it? Possibly. It might be better to see if there are other club members going to the same event, but fencing in non-conflicting events. Then travel, room & board could be split. I'm sure a plan could be worked out to everyones benefit.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by fencerdadsez

Not every club has 15 A level fencers. Some have one, or none, but maybe a B or two or event a couple of good Cs. Hopefully, the club is trying to progress to better fencing for all its members.

Suppose you are the parent of the 1 or 2 kids that is consistantly qualifying to go to national events and doing reasonably well (top 64 pretty consistantly, top 32 occassionally).

Should you expect your kid's coach to be there? Always? Even if your kid is the only student who is at the event?

Should you expect to pay 100% of the coaches cost, because your kid is the only one there? Is it your fault that the coach has no other fencers that good?

Are there other strategies for strip coaching that work in a situation like that?

Assume that changing coaches or clubs is not an option.

I think these questions are a bit loaded, as you nearly answer them yourself, but I'll toss in my 2 cents.

1) Maybe. Think about what you're asking. You want this coach to disregard the rest of their club for your kid. How would you react if it wasn't your kid that was making 32s, and they were being pushed aside in favor of someone else? The coach should also expect some sort of return on services rendered, as well as reimbursement of expenses. I'll cover more of that when answering the next question.

2) Yes, you should be paying the coach's way if you want them to come out, and maybe even a per diem. That's rough when there's only one kid from a club going, I know, but fencing coaches tend not to be very well off, and by having them come out there and NOT GET PAID for any lessons and classes that they'd be giving... now you're looking at 500+ for the trip, and the loss of quite a bit more to the club, coach or both, depending on how the club handles financial stuff. Speaking as a coach, I would gladly do this for free if I didn't have to eat, pay rent, etc. Unfortunately... I DO have to do those things, and so I'm going to have to ask for some sort of profit so that I can pay my bills, keep my club open and keep coaching my kids.

3) Strategies for strip coaching? I'd generally ask a friend who will be at the NAC but not fencing in that event to strip coach me. If not, try and help out as a parent. You say you don't know much about fencing, but you can still help your kid think through their problems. Good questions include "What are you scoring touches on? How can you make more of these happen? What are they scoring touches on? How can you minimize this? Where on the strip are you when you are acoring, and where are you being scored upon? What sorts of actions does the opponent like? How can you beat those actions?" You can also help make sure that your kid keeps their head in the game and has whatever mental attitude works for them as a competitor (different people function better with different attitudes.)

Most of all, though... if you can't get a coach to a NAC, DON'T PANIC. No matter what happens, DON'T PANIC. It's not the end of the world, and getting worked up about it will not help your kid succeed. Them gettign worked up about it will be even worse.

You obviously want what's best for your kid (I think I have yet to meet a parent that doesn't) but take a deep breath and put yourself in the shoes of the coach and the other students. Your kid may have the best competitive results, but that doesn't mean that the coach (especially if they are the only coach at that club) can ignore all the other students, and it certainly doesn't mean that they can do so at a loss.

I would advise that you talk to your kid's coach and lay out the situation. Don't come in there with demands (coaches can get quickly turned off to extremely demanding parents with a lot of ideas about what they expect from a coach) but explain to them that your kid is getting respectable NAC results and you think they would do even better if someone was there to strip coach them, warm them up, etc.

Just be prepared to pay a lot of money for it. They're not trying to bilk you, but going to a NAC and missing work without pay is a very expensive prospect.

[4qtrs]

Originally Posted by fencerdadsez

The question that was not answered was actually the most important to me. Should I expect the coach to be there, always (or nearly always)? What I observe is that most of the better fencers have a strip coach. .
.

From my experiences, no you shouldn't expect them to be there all the time. Depending on how many fencers the coach is helping, they will probably try and help the ones that need it the most at that time. For instance, a newer fencer may have difficultly in pools where as if your kid is consisantly making it to the 64 they probably need more support in the DEs.

Each coach has their style and you have to figure out what that is. We have a large group from our club that attend NACs. Sometimes if the group is to large you may only pay a small fee but in the end only recieve a small bit of coaching.

As a parent, I feel it is better not to have the fencer become dependent on having the coach there all of the time. If they can overcome the pressure of a NAC and think for themselves on the strip it is better for them overall.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by foildad

Oh, and as for the suggestion that you try learn to coach the kids, I'd give that a big thumbs down. Let the coach be the coach and let the parents be the parents.

On second thought, I have to agree with foildad here. I've seen parents try to strip coach their kids, and it rarely ends well. Unless they ask you for some help completely of their own accord, I'd stay out of it. You probably won't be doing them any favors.

[fencerdadsez]

Thanks everyone, I think I understand the situation a bit better now.

When the coach is around for strip coaching, the right thing seems to happen. The coach does seem to be very good at figuring out who needs help when. My fencer can handle the pools pretty well. and the easy DEs. Its when the tough DE arrives that, too often, I know that some pointed technical advise would help, and there is no one there to give it. I'll just have to get out the check book some more.

Fortunately, we don't have a panic problem. We don't really have a "give up" problem. Frustration, oh yeah.

We're talking to the coach about this. We'll see how it works out. See you on the side of the strip.

[4qtrs]

One other thing you can do is call the coach when your kid is on-deck. That gives them a heads up that they will be needed soon.

[Mo]

RIT's idea of finding another fencer not in the event is a good one. Even a fencer in the event who is not fencing at the same time will work.
Sometimes other kids from the club can fill in. Doing this seems to help them bond.
My kid really enjoys coaching the little kids at NACs when she has the chance. She gets so excited and she has more fun than the kids fencing do.
Help your son make friends. Often, referees from your area who are not working that day can help out too.
At the world cups the girls often coach each other when their coach is not present or opts to coach someone else. The support is helpful but having a well known coach standing by your strip can help.
The Momster

[remise]

I don't think my daughter has ever had her coach on-site when she competed. Like what Mo pointed out, she would solicit the advice of more experienced fencers, and go with that. Her coach has a large club to attend to and would not be able to drop everything just for her.

In contrast, because she is used to 'going it alone', should her coach ever show up at a comp, she would probably "freeze up" and over-do everything in an attempt to please him.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by remise

In contrast, because she is used to 'going it alone', should her coach ever show up at a comp, she would probably "freeze up" and over-do everything in an attempt to please him.

I've never understood why students do this. Why are they so worried about pleasing the coach? They (or their parents) pay us, not vice versa.

[oiuyt]

Note that there's (at least) two different things going on that can easily lead to poorer results. First the trying too hard bit mentioned. Secondly, if a fencer isn't used to strip-side coaching in a competition setting, it can easily be detrimental.

It requires practice to be able to take outside information and comfortably absorb it and use it (or not, as appropriate) while remaining in competition mode. When should the fencer trust her/his own decisions, when to defer to the advice from the side? How to interpret what is being said, so the instructions received are the same as those intended to be given. How to take the advice and use it to decide on better strategies or tactics to then employ (true, whether the advice is specific or not).

Some people are better at it than others. Some can only take certain types of advice, or at certain times. The athlete and the coach need to figure out the best manner of interacting to optimize performance, and there's certainly no guarantee that will happen the first time it's tried.

And that's completely leaving aside issues where some coaches are good at strip-side and others simply aren't. Which may or may not correlate with how strong they are as lesson coaches (which, in turn, may or may not correlate with how strong they are as club or team coaches). Some coaches are very good at in-bout advice, but only during period breaks (or, for some team events, timeouts), while others excel at being able to communicate useful information in the 3-5 seconds between touches. Or with/without vocal communications.

-B