Why not a lot of USA Folists want to go to Gran Prix?

[misha]

It is time to revive religious wars

I noticed this weekend there is Foil Grand Prix in St.Petersburg and
Epee Grand Prix in Stockholm.
Grand Prix means double FIE points and Team event.
For Epee - there are more people that want to go than allowed per country...
For Foil - USA barely scraped 3 people to fence in the team event...

Why there is such a big difference?

Is it luck of Olympic team event for foil?
Are foilists poorer than epeeists?
Are they more rational and do not want to waste money
if they know that they can not get into FIE points there because it is too strong?

I thought about creating a poll, but it would be flawed

The kicker is that looks like St.Petersburg one is held
at the same venue as 2007 World Championship and
you would think that people would want to scout the place

.

[fencerontheline]

Originally Posted by misha

It is time to revive religious wars

I noticed this weekend there is Foil Grand Prix in St.Petersburg and
Epee Grand Prix in Stockholm.
Grand Prix means double FIE points and Team event.
For Epee - there are more people that want to go than allowed per country...
For Foil - USA barely scraped 3 people to fence in the team event...

Why there is such a big difference?

Is it luck of Olympic team event for foil?
Are foilists poorer than epeeists?
Are they more rational and do not want to waste money
if they know that they can not get into FIE points there because it is too strong?

I thought about creating a poll, but it would be flawed

The kicker is that looks like St.Petersburg one is held
at the same venue as 2007 World Championship and
you would think that people would want to scout the place

.

Misha,
I think one of the reason not many men's foilists go to senior worldcups is because there exists a huge dropoff between the team-level international men's foilists and everyone else. I think that dropoff leads to certain level of aprehention and fear of senior world cups... Also, there's very few top senior men's foilists past the age of 21... senior men's foil in the US is essentially junior men's foil with a couple extra "ol'ringers"...

Too many of the guys that are Jed and Jon's age have quit. It's a shame, because it makes the field more shallow nationally. US men's foilists need to stop quitting during or right after college, and to realize this, a system of incentives need be put into order.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

US men's foilists need to stop quitting during or right after college, and to realize this, a system of incentives need be put into order.

not just foilists, all fencers. its less obvious in the other weapons now, but we still do lose lots of good fencers after college.

[fencerontheline]

Originally Posted by noodle

not just foilists, all fencers. its less obvious in the other weapons now, but we still do lose lots of good fencers after college.

No doubt. But look at it this way- Men's saber has a high retention rate post-college, mainly because there exists an additional fiscal support network for the athletes, via Yury's new program idea.

Men's epee and men's foil has no such incentive program availible. The one option open to men's epeeists that men's foilists have not yet used (and may not be able to), is the availibility of the Air Force and Army Program to provide an economic support network for elite athletes.

Among all the weapons, the senior men's foil points list is probably the youngest... Without an incentive or support program, we'll lose more talented individuals like we did with the last generations: our Steve Gerbermans, Gabe Sinkins, Mark Muhallands, Andy Radus, Joe Fishers, Chang brothers, and countless unmentioned others...


I don't know much about the women's programs, but it doesn't seem like there are any incentive programs in place for elite athletes...

That offers a partial explanation of the relatively young ages of the higher level women's epeeists and women's saberists (barring notable exceptions).

To become a top level fencer, there needs to be something in it besides the 'pride'... 'pride' and glory are great incentives, however they don't do much when you're funding the majority of your own travel and training

Sorry to jump on the topic, but this topic is one near and dear to my heart- I'd like men's foil to improve in this country on the senior level, but the necessary conditions are not present as things are.

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

Men's epee and men's foil has no such incentive program availible. The one option open to men's epeeists that men's foilists have not yet used (and may not be able to), is the availibility of the Air Force and Army Program to provide an economic support network for elite athletes.

Actually, fencers from other weapons can join Army WCAP as long as they are in the top 8 in the country.

The infrastructure in Colorado isn't there, so they would have to stay where they are to keep training--that wouldn't be a bad thing, though.

[edew]

My suspicion is that foil is harder than the other two weapons. No only do you have to constantly practice point control, you need to practice (on your own, usually) more footwork and movement than in the other two weapons. People just can't keep doing that after a while.

[misha]

Originally Posted by edew

People just can't keep doing that after a while.

I am not talking about "after a while"... I am talking about "right now"
There are plenty of people on Senior Foil National Points List right now,
very similar numbers to Epee...
Why are Foilists who are active right now not going to Grand Prix right now?

.

[eac]

Edew: Foil may be harder, but if so, it's harder for the other people internationally too, so I don't see why that would make a difference.

The thing about MS retaining more people makes sense; they have money.

Someone mentioned in another thread about how international WE is probably harder than international WS, because more people go to the events and more people have been training for longer for WE than for WS. I don't have much evidence for this, but I suspect the international strength in the various senior events goes MF > MS > ME > WF > WE > WS.

This is just based on the level of success various people have had different levels and amounts of training-- for instance, WS is probably the only weapon where a Cadet could do anything useful at all in a Senior competition; to give a counterexample, Gerek Meinhardt was one of the top few Cadet MF in the world even a year ago, but he still hasn't made the 64 at a strong world cup.

If you look at the top fencers in MF-- Joppich, Cassara, Baldini, Attely, etc-- you see that they basically are full-time professional athletes. Cassara does nothing but fence. Joppich has almost no time for anything but fencing, because of the intensity of training, but sometimes plays some soccer. Contrast this with Mariel Zagunis, who can maintain a #1 ranking in the world while still attending college.

There are many other examples, so no one blow up my house because I didn't mention their favorite fencer. Also, no one blow up my house because I said their event is not as strong internationally. If it's true, it probably has nothing to do with the inherent difficulty of the weapon and everything to do with the amount people train for it.

Edit: I forgot where I was going with that. What this means is that US MF is much more discouraged to go to MF Grand Prix, because they see the people who flatten them at every NAC losing before the 64 at GP's. Then they say, why bother? I have considered going with Greg to some weaker World Cups, and I have the same skeptical rationale, although I'm not high on the points list.

[lecrivain06]

I smell Mo and/or SloMo just around the bend, fasten ur seatbelt eac.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

No doubt. But look at it this way- Men's saber has a high retention rate post-college, mainly because there exists an additional fiscal support network for the athletes, via Yury's new program idea.

So the reason MS didn't lose those fencers five years ago is because of a program Yury is just getting established this season?

Not sure causality works quite like that.

-B

[fencerontheline]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

So the reason MS didn't lose those fencers five years ago is because of a program Yury is just getting established this season?

Not sure causality works quite like that.

-B

Brad, that's not the causual relationship that I'm drawing. I know that many of the top ranked fencers stood within the sport for the last 5 years for various reasons... The social comraderie and fiscal support generated by those fencer's support networks have played a major role in them maintaining a competitive role in the sport.

But I know that the economic throwbacks generated by Yury's newly minted program have helped to keep at least one person involved that had left the sport in the past to begin a 'real career' (Ivan)

Back to topic, in men's foil, it becomes a lonely field for those who stay competitive past the age of 22... In part, this lonelyness and isolation steps from the dissapation of your peer group, who you grew up with. It must hurt terribly to see the fencers that you came up with leave for something else.

[noodle]

just as a tangent, do you think it would be reasonable to raise membership and/or NAC/Nationals fees in order to generate funds to subsidize our top fencers?

[TooLoftheDeviL]

Originally Posted by noodle

just as a tangent, do you think it would be reasonable to raise membership and/or NAC/Nationals fees in order to generate funds to subsidize our top fencers?

Is there information readily available concerning where the current funds go to?

[noodle]

Originally Posted by TooLoftheDeviL

Is there information readily available concerning where the current funds go to?

dunno, none that i know of, but raising membership and NAC/nationals entry fees by about $5-10 each would probably cover a good portion of training and travel costs for the top 8 in each senior weapon, which, imho, would go a long way.

[float]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

Actually, fencers from other weapons can join Army WCAP as long as they are in the top 8 in the country.

Is funding open ended in the States or does someone need to maintain a certain level of results to stay eligible?

[counterattack]

Originally Posted by noodle

just as a tangent, do you think it would be reasonable to raise membership and/or NAC/Nationals fees in order to generate funds to subsidize our top fencers?

You know, there was a solicitation for cash donations for the elite fencers a year (?) ago. When I responded with a donation I got a "What is this check for?" e-mail. And I said "for the letter that was sent out". They said "um, we'll get back to you." Later they responded saying "oh, we didn't know about the letter, we'll keep your money." That was last I ever heard of the campaign. As far as raising membership fees to pay for the national team, I think that is silly. Why should the rank and file be forced to pay for the elite dreams of other fencers? You want to be the best in the world? Do it! But "doing it" includes paying for it either by earning the money yourself or convincing someone else to pay for it. It shouldn't be a tax on every recreational fencer in the country.

As for men's foil, it seems to be between generations right now. The older generation are good, but fading, and they know now they will never be the world champions. The next generation's dreams are still alive but they aren't yet at the level that warrants travel to all the men's WC events where they will get clobbered and sent home. A couple of years and it will be worth their time to get clobbered, and a couple more years they might not even get clobbered. And then they'll quit too, get real jobs, and move on with their lives. It is the circle of life.

[rcmatthews]

Originally Posted by edew

My suspicion is that foil is harder than the other two weapons. No only do you have to constantly practice point control, you need to practice (on your own, usually) more footwork and movement than in the other two weapons. People just can't keep doing that after a while.

yeah ok

[rcmatthews]

I think a good idea would be for the Olympic team members to set up a tournament for their own benefit. Put it in a big area, advertise the hell out of it, and scrubs like me would come to fence in it. This money could then be used to support them. Make it like a job

[eac]

What's the difference between that and a Div I, other than that fewer people would come because no points are given out?