Club fees for absent coach?

[C.I.C.]

We've heard of a number of fencers in situations like this, and would appreciate others' opinions.

Fencer A joins Club B to be taught and coached by superb Coach Q.
Club B's fees are a financial burden, but Fencer A makes sacrifices to afford the excellent coaching.

After Fencer A joins Club B, it occurs that at various later dates, for various reasons, Coach Q is absent from Club B and not available for Fencer A to receive any coaching/lessons from Coach Q; some absences are many, many weeks long.

Reasons for Coach Q's absences include:
1. Health
2. Vacation
3. Travel to coach other club members at distant competitions
4. Non-coaching personal business (non-vacation)

Club B is treating all 4 reasons for Coach Q's absences as equal, and Fencer A's burdensome club fees remain constant month-to-month regardless of availability of Coach Q. Club B offers the services of much less desirable Coach X as substitute, but Fencer A would never have made the financial sacrifices for coaching by Coach X.

The fencers in this type of situation we've encountered have all agreed:
- For reasons 1 and 3 it's reasonable and fair to all that there be no reduction of club fees.

- For reason 2, if the vacation absences are not excessive by any reasonable standards, then again fees should not be reduced.

- For reason 4, there should be a reduction in Club A's fees as this is not a reasonable situation for which Fencer A should be expected to bear a financial burden.

What are your thoughts and opinions on this, and/or what do your clubs do?

Thanks

[Craig]

I think a lot of this is guided by the expectations shared by both parties (member and club owner/club) with each other at the time of sign up and also the terms of the contract for the club membership...

[noodle]

are you paying extra for lessons?

[RITFencing]

I think that this is an excellent question.

For my answer, please bear in mind that I am not counting sudden emergencies and extraordinary situations; terrible injury, death in the family, stranded in the middle of nowhere, etc.

Personally, when I've had to miss giving private lessons, I have always let students know in advance and released them of their financial responsibility towards me. However, I have never run a club (discounting my college club) and so have not had to worry much about this.

I think as a student, if I went to a club for the sole purpose of lessons from Coach O, I would ask for either a reduction of fees or a suspension of my membership while he or she was gone for a large period of time.

I think a lot of this also depends on the club's fee structure. If it is a month to month floor fee with a per class/lesson fee extra, then the answer is simple... keep up the floor fee and don't take any lessons or classes until Coach O gets back. If it's an "all inclusive" type of thing, with a flat fee for open bouting, X classes and Y lessons a month, I would have to ask for either a reduced rate, contingent upon my taking no classes or lessons, or a suspension of my fees and membership if the first was unavailable or if I saw no point in continuing until Coach O got back.

[occasionalfencer]

If you chose this coach based on results of his fencers, remember his fencers not only take lessons from him, but also fence in his club. The whole structure of the club, the atmosphere, and the instruction given by subordinate coaches in the club are all part of how this coach brings along developing fencers. If all you want is to feel that you are "getting your money's worth" devote you money to an activity where there is a totally clear correlation between what you spend and what you get. (For instance, time on a parking meter). If your real concern is that during the frequent absences of this coach your fencing is not progressing as you would like, talk to the coach about what he wants you to do while he is gone. If you work as hard as you can at the drills, conditioning and other lessons that the coach gives you, he will be able to help you that much more. It may be that you are already getting all the fencing instruction you can absorb.

[Phrogger]

I'd agree with all of the responses posted so far. It depends on what you negotiated when you joined the club. Floor fees generally pay for use of the club facility, not for coaching. I don't know of clubs with fees that include private lessons, but I suppose they exist. Could you elaborate on your situation? Strictly speaking, they don't owe you anything, unless it's in writing. That doesn't mean it's fair. The odds they are going to tell a star coach he can't go and do what he wants to do are small. If they want to keep you as a student they may be willing to work with you. Don't throw too big of a fuss though. Fencing is still a small world and relationships and reputations matter. Be up front and polite with them, explain the situation and accept their answer. Let them know that you are happy with the coaching quality, but the financial burden is a problem considering you aren't getting the quantity that you expected. If you decide to leave, be equally up front and say due to financial considerations and more coaching availability at Club C, you must consider changing clubs at the end of the season. With any luck they will either cut you a break or you will be able to leave with a smile and a handshake. If you leave them in a bad way, don't expect to ever be invited back.

[Vince]

The question is: "Am I getting what I'm paying for?"

So that brings up a second question. What are you paying for?

If you have a monthly club fee that allows you to come and fence whenever you like, and private lessons are extra, then if your not paying extra, your getting exactly what your paying for when he's on vacation.

If your paying a monthly fee that includes fencing AND private lessons, then your not getting as much value while he's gone, however, it's the club's business, he can do whatever he jolly well pleases.

If your paying monthly, and biggest bang for your buck is important (Which it always should be.), then take the month he's on vacation for 2 weeks off...
or ask him for a discount. (Which takes a certain amount of gall, which you may or may not possess. )

~Vince

[noodle]

The question is: "Am I getting what I'm paying for?"

So that brings up a second question. What are you paying for?

If you have a monthly club fee that allows you to come and fence whenever you like, and private lessons are extra, then if your not paying extra, your getting exactly what your paying for when he's on vacation.

If your paying a monthly fee that includes fencing AND private lessons, then your not getting as much value while he's gone, however, it's the club's business, he can do whatever he jolly well pleases.

If your paying monthly, and biggest bang for your buck is important (Which it always should be.), then take the month he's on vacation for 2 weeks off...
or ask him for a discount. (Which takes a certain amount of gall, which you may or may not possess. )

~Vince

this is basically what i was eventually going to get around to saying, after i eventually had an answer to my question

[eac]

Basically, for a high-powered coach, there are two states of being with respect to him: either he's invested in you, or he isn't. If he's invested in you, then he views his own success as partially determined by your success, and he will make time for you. If he isn't, then he views you just as a revenue source that will never really go anywhere, and it doesn't really matter how much he puts into you, because he won't ever get any glory out of it.
Some coaches never get invested in any of their students; these coaches are low-powered. Some coaches are invested in some of their students, get some good results, get burned out or emotionally scarred or whatever, and then stop being invested in any of them, and go from being high-powered to being low-powered. Some coaches only get invested in you when you swear fealty to them, e.g. by making them your competition club and wearing their uniform.
If I had to guess, I would guess that coach Q is of the second variety, where you have determined that he is superb by his past results but now he has decayed into slackerdom (I can't imagine how a coach would remain high-powered while taking prolonged non-vacation trips, abandoning all his students). If that's true, you'll have to look farther away for good coaching.
Speaking of which, I suggest that you don't rule out coaches that are a nontrivial distance away; as long as you have a club with reasonable fencers to practice with nearby, you can keep improving with relatively infrequent trips to a high-powered coach, assuming said high-powered coach gets invested in you. I have had fairly reasonably improving competitive results with California coaches while living in Pennsylvania, and I only visit on vacations and maybe the occasional weekend camp, plus NACs.

[Mergs]

Just out of idle curiosity, what geographic part of the country are you in? This sounds awfully like a potential situation I observed a while back. Inquiring minds want to know............

[counterattack]

I think a lot of the responses are missing the crux of it. To get lessons at a club you often have to be a member, even if the lessons aren't part of the fee. So you go to a club that is much more expensive than your old club in order to also be able to pay extra for lessons from a special coach. But now that coach is barely there. What can you do? Coaches available for lessons are a club resource, just like grounded strips, number of strips, a locker room, armory, etc. Of course they are people with their own lives and needs also, and you don't have any special right to them. But if your club suddenly went from 10 strips to 5 strips (say a roof leak or something) and didn't rush to get it repaired would you not think you were now overpaying for the club? It probably isn't in anything you signed saying the club will keep its equipment in repair and tools in the armory in order to earn your dues. And certainly availability of a particular coach isn't in the writing either, but there is no doubt that all of these things are part of the value. My suggestion is to talk to the owner and have a particular offer to make. And make it a reasonable one (don't expect 50% dues, but 75% might be okay). Keep in mind your value to the club, also. Are you a fencer who might be viewed as a resource by other fencers (e.g. "hey, want to go to club X on Thursday? I hear fencer Y will be there.")? That would give you more leverage. But have an idea of what you'd like to get, and what you'd accept in the worst case. And no matter how things turn out (e.g. he spits in your face) don't escalate beyond a handshake and a "fare thee well". I had a somewhat similiar problem and it all worked out in the end. I got dues relief enough to make it worth my while.

[Allen Evans]

Does the club have a policy on coaches skipping lessons?

Is that policy written down?

If a policy exists, is it being followed?

I can’t even begin to comment on your situation in the specific….I don’t know under what circumstances you came into the club, if you are operating under any sort of contract with the coach, or what the history of your relationship with this coach/club is.

I will point out that this is not unusual. Students and coaches form training relationships with often NO discussion of expectations or responsibilities. The student and coach can train together for some time, and then initial conditions change. When that happens, either the coach or the student may feel – under their separate perceptions of the coach/student relationship – they are being taken advantage of. In the best case – and the only advice I will give to the original poster – the coach and the student sit down, and come to an agreement about what their mutual expectations are.

Often, instead, the relationship continues to sour until one party quits or blows up, leaving the other party baffled. If this sounds like script for a bad marriage, that isn’t a coincidence. The coach and student have an emotional investment in each other without a history of communicating to each other. Even someone as simple as Dr. Phil knows this is not good news.

I currently do not use a written agreement with my students. However, I do talk to my students quite often about our mutual expectations. Doing this cuts down on a lot of friction and potential problems. I usually talk to new students for some time about why they want to fence, and why they want to fence with ME. I’ve made some mistakes, but on the whole, my student/coach relationships have been very healthy.

Allen

[contre-Sixte]

In NCal there are dozens of professional fencing coaches. But I doubt that more than a handful have coached in the same physical location for more than five years straight. So as eac says, coaches often descend into slackerdom, but they also simply disappear due to politics/money/ visa issues / etc. My point is don't choose a club primarily for the coach. Choose it because of convenient location, suitable facilities, quality of fencers ,quantity of fencers ,and atmosphere that you like.

It's common for skilled coaches to replace departing skilled coaches if the salle has strong fencers. It's more rare for a skilled coach to take over a non-competitive/ declining salle.