How do you work armoring into your classes?

[remise]

I guess I have two questions here. As a weapons fixer, I get loads of folks asking how their fencer can learn repair work, so let me ask here:

1. How young do you start teaching fencers to maintain their equipment?

2. How do you work it into the class/lesson? Do you have a separate armoring session, say once or twice a month or do you work it into a weekly class?

[Purple Fencer]

About the only way I can do it -- aside from running separate armoring clinics -- is simply to offedr to show them the next time I fix their weapons....

[Katman]

During the beginners class I taught at University, we had one class where we focused on armoring. Everyone paid attention and probably promptly forgot most of it later. My experince is that most people don't really care to remember the armoring advice until something of theirs breaks.

Edit: About a week (though sometimes the week of) before tournaments we would drag out all the gear and re-teach most of the basic armoring stuff, mostly because we had a huge pile of gear we needed to fix.

[jfarmer]

I'm actually trying to determine an answer to that myself. I don't try to teach armoring during the first 2 or 3 courses (Intro with Dry Foil; Intermed. with Elec. Foil; Developing Competitive Foil, Epee, & Sabre Skills), but I'm thinking about doing a short, 4 or 5 hour course dealing with basic armory for fencers. Topics to hit are setting up a weapon, re-wiring a blade, and the care & feeding of uniforms and lames. The idea is to teach new fencers the skills that they need to care for their gear. I thought about embedding it in a specific class, but I think that a separate class is going to work better.

Creating Armorers would take a much longer & involved course.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[mrbiggs]

My coach once said something along the lines of that it takes forever to really know how to fix fencing stuff because there are so many problems that can go wrong. Getting a feel for what parts cause what sorts of malfunctions takes a lot of time and practice, and can't really be taught in a class.

You can teach them to take apart and put together their equipment, but teaching them what to do when is very difficult. In my opinion.

[KD5MDK]

Not really. What it takes is a general mechanical aptitude, a troubleshooting mindset, and some basic electrical knowledge. That suffices for generally knowing what needs to be done in most circumstances. It's the edge cases, the knowing the specific features of each peice of equipment, the practice and skill to do repairs well, and the being about to troubleshoot problems quickly that experience requires.

The problem is most people don't have the skills I listed above, but for those who do it's easy to get started.

[remise]

Originally Posted by Katman

Everyone paid attention and probably promptly forgot most of it later. My experince is that most people don't really care to remember the armoring advice until something of theirs breaks.

That's exactly what I'm dealing with now! No one is interested in seeing how I fix something, or in attending a clinic, but when their weapon breaks, its a global emergency.

[VorpalCat]

Originally Posted by remise

That's exactly what I'm dealing with now! No one is interested in seeing how I fix something, or in attending a clinic, but when their weapon breaks, its a global emergency.

So the people (if any) who have watched over your shoulder or attended a clinic get their weapons fixed before the ones who have blown off those opportunities in the past. That'll encourage interest! (Not sure if I'm kidding or not, heh!)

[El Chucko]

Originally Posted by remise

That's exactly what I'm dealing with now! No one is interested in seeing how I fix something, or in attending a clinic, but when their weapon breaks, its a global emergency.

We have armory workshops, but, like you said, few people make any effort to apply the skills they were supposed to learn, or even attend in the first place.

Think about this: I have heard of some armorers who charge a lot to fix bodycords ($12 per end, etc.). This is for a few reasons, but one of them is that every fencer should at least know how to fix a BODYCORD themselves. There isn't really any excuse.

Maybe we should charge high rates to fix EVERYTHING, to encourage people to learn to do it themselves? I am a high school teacher, and figuring out ways to motivate students is always the most important step. High cost is a good motivator.

If we charge a lot to fix things, but then offer free instruction/workshops, maybe folks will take the initiative to become more independent.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

My coach once said something along the lines of that it takes forever to really know how to fix fencing stuff because there are so many problems that can go wrong.

There aren't many moving parts in the weapon itself and the circuits are pretty simple. If you can replicate the problem, you can test for it.

For 80% of what goes wrong the diagnosis and solutions are pretty easy. For the other 20% you have an extra spare body cord, weapon, and move to a new strip!

Craig

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Craig

There aren't many moving parts in the weapon itself and the circuits are pretty simple. If you can replicate the problem, you can test for it.

For 80% of what goes wrong the diagnosis and solutions are pretty easy. For the other 20% you have an extra spare body cord, weapon, and move to a new strip!

Craig

Let's take an intermittent off target in foil. This could be caused by:

body cord wire broken or corroded
body cord fallen out of the prongs
prongs not wide enough for the socket
socket not tight enough
grip not tight enough
break in the wire
loose barrel
dented barrel
dust in the barrel
wrong size spring
broken reel
broken floor cord
broken machine

just off the top of my head. How is a beginner supposed to know that all of those things can go wrong, how to test them, and which one is most likely?

Since I have experience, I know that once I start getting lights, I check for loose parts, then wiggle the body cord, then check the socket, etc., to narrow down what I think it is. But that's hardly intuitive, even if someone has a full understanding of what can go wrong.

[Katman]

Originally Posted by El Chucko

We have armory workshops, but, like you said, few people make any effort to apply the skills they were supposed to learn, or even attend in the first place.

Think about this: I have heard of some armorers who charge a lot to fix bodycords ($12 per end, etc.). This is for a few reasons, but one of them is that every fencer should at least know how to fix a BODYCORD themselves. There isn't really any excuse.

Maybe we should charge high rates to fix EVERYTHING, to encourage people to learn to do it themselves? I am a high school teacher, and figuring out ways to motivate students is always the most important step. High cost is a good motivator.

If we charge a lot to fix things, but then offer free instruction/workshops, maybe folks will take the initiative to become more independent.

I helped a friend of mine, who is a certified armorer, fix a pile of weapons one particular fencer had left him. I swear I'm not kidding; 70 percent of those weapons only had loose barrels. That was the only thing wrong with them.

Thankfully, for that fencer, this armorer wouldn't charge much for just tightening barrels. This wasn't an unseasoned fencer either, by any means.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Let's take an intermittent off target in foil. This could be caused by:

body cord wire broken or corroded
body cord fallen out of the prongs
prongs not wide enough for the socket
socket not tight enough
grip not tight enough
break in the wire
loose barrel
dented barrel
dust in the barrel
wrong size spring
broken reel
broken floor cord
broken machine

just off the top of my head. How is a beginner supposed to know that all of those things can go wrong, how to test them, and which one is most likely?

Since I have experience, I know that once I start getting lights, I check for loose parts, then wiggle the body cord, then check the socket, etc., to narrow down what I think it is. But that's hardly intuitive, even if someone has a full understanding of what can go wrong.

With a little bit of common sense and the advice "work back from the tip, and look for stuff that's loose" you can find out almost everything that's wrong on that list in about five minutes.

A beginner might not know where the wire is supposed to attach in the weapon or bodycord, but if the wire is smashed, broken, or not connected, they should know enough to know that's the problem.

Fixing it might be a little harder, but a beginner can't be expected to fix anything boxward of the reel. If you can at least figure out what it is, you can switch it out and take it to someone later.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

With a little bit of common sense and the advice "work back from the tip, and look for stuff that's loose" you can find out almost everything that's wrong on that list in about five minutes.

A beginner might not know where the wire is supposed to attach in the weapon or bodycord, but if the wire is smashed, broken, or not connected, they should know enough to know that's the problem.

Fixing it might be a little harder, but a beginner can't be expected to fix anything boxward of the reel. If you can at least figure out what it is, you can switch it out and take it to someone later.

Well, then, have fun at your club where everyone knows what to do when something breaks and they bring you their weapons with the problem as well as the part causing it.
I've just never seen it happen anywhere I've fenced.

[erooMynohtnA]

I'm not saying they do anything about it when something breaks. They could if they weren't lazy. They probably would if they didn't have anyone to baby them.

The way I learned to fix stuff was common sense and a coach who viewed changing a spring as advanced armoring.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Katman

I helped a friend of mine, who is a certified armorer, fix a pile of weapons one particular fencer had left him. I swear I'm not kidding; 70 percent of those weapons only had loose barrels. That was the only thing wrong with them.

Thankfully, for that fencer, this armorer wouldn't charge much for just tightening barrels. This wasn't an unseasoned fencer either, by any means.

I get that all the time...from every high school or college team I armor for...loose barrel or grip...or some other VERY minor thing that you really don;t need an armorer to fix.

With a batch of epees it's usually the contact spring being short or long, or a broken wire at the socket.

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by Craig

There aren't many moving parts in the weapon itself and the circuits are pretty simple. If you can replicate the problem, you can test for it.

For 80% of what goes wrong the diagnosis and solutions are pretty easy. For the other 20% you have an extra spare body cord, weapon, and move to a new strip!

Craig

The problem is really the fact that most people do not understand how to problem solve. Call it fixing things, debugging programs, whatever. It comes down to understanding how to look at something that isn't working, determine what is wrong, and then fixing it.

In a short course, I can teach the skills to do things, but teaching how to fix things is a long term project for anyone. And some people just don't have the ability to creatively troubleshoot problems. For them all you can do is teach them procedures for testing and eliminating potential sources of problems.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by jfarmer

The problem is really the fact that most people do not understand how to problem solve. Call it fixing things, debugging programs, whatever. It comes down to understanding how to look at something that isn't working, determine what is wrong, and then fixing it.

In a short course, I can teach the skills to do things, but teaching how to fix things is a long term project for anyone. And some people just don't have the ability to creatively troubleshoot problems. For them all you can do is teach them procedures for testing and eliminating potential sources of problems.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

Yep yep yep....knowing HOW to identify the problem is more than half the battle!

How many times do we hear foil fencers bring up a weapon with a constant white light and hear this "I think it's shorting out."

Every so often I'll get someone who actually knows how to ID the problem and gets it right...they;re just busy on the strip and can't take the time to fix it themselves....'course, these tend to be armorers themselves....

At least they give me good info on the problem instead of just saying "it's broken."

[twisterfencing]

Originally Posted by remise

I guess I have two questions here. As a weapons fixer, I get loads of folks asking how their fencer can lea