Would you ever "take a dive"?

[Cookeit]

Here is a question... which the answer may be quite obvious.

Would you ever lose to a teammate on purpose at a local tournament so they can get their letter/rating?
Of course, there is no way that you, yourself, can get a letter/rating higher than you already have.

[RPI Epeeist]

If you did, and the director recognized it, you could be black carded. "Profiting from collusion, favoring an opponent" - t.88/t.105 - 4th group offense. So technically, he'd be profiting from collusion and you'd be favoring an opponent... so you'd both be black carded. (Or at least this is what I was taught during my ref. seminar... could be mistaken)

So I'd say no...

Besides, if they deserved the rating then they should be able to beat me.

[RevJonathan]

I have thrown a C a couple of times because I wanted to fence Div 3. I've argued at the bout committee at Nationals before to have my D restored.

However, I was aware of the rules and a black card. I did try to win the bout, but if you really don't want to win, you aren't going to. Its complicated, but when you are on strip in the moment you understand. If you aren't ready, you aren't going to pick up the new rating, no matter how hard you try.

[HDG]

Cheating is cheating no matter the motivation behind it, so no, no dives here, and I wouldn't want anyone taking one for me so I could get a rating I hadn't earned and didn't deserve.

[Coldfire]

Besides the fact that its against the rules I still wouldn't do it. I try my hardest and give my all no matter who I'm fencing. The person opposite me on the strip has to beat me because they are better than me. Let them earn their letter fairly.

[lindajdunn]

No. Never. And I wouldn't want anyone to ever do it for me.

The joy (imho) is in fencing well and EARNING the rating.

[MessiahFencing]

to be honest.. i might..

i mean if it's a local tournament..and all.

plus on my team there is a kid who can barely get in an en garde (even though we've both had the same amount of teaching and stuff ), might help his fencing confidence and self esteem

[HDG]

plus on my team there is a kid who can barely get in an en garde (even though we've both had the same amount of teaching and stuff ), might help his fencing confidence and self esteem

Yeah, and it might set him up for a fall later.

[Frank Pratt]

No. Never. And I wouldn't want anyone to ever do it for me.

The joy (imho) is in fencing well and EARNING the rating.

Same here. I would feel bad if I earned a rating simply because my opponent felt pittyon me, or even of he had to withdraw during our DE bout due to an injury. I'm not all that big on the "his loss is my gain" philosophy (unless, of course, I beat him fair and square! )

[oiuyt]

If you did, and the director recognized it, you could be black carded. "Profiting from collusion, favoring an opponent" - t.88/t.105 - 4th group offense. So technically, he'd be profiting from collusion and you'd be favoring an opponent... so you'd both be black carded. (Or at least this is what I was taught during my ref. seminar... could be mistaken)

Well, if you take the dive without pre-arranging it then it's "favoring an opponent", but s/he isn't "profiting from collusion". Only you should be black carded.

Back to the original question, no I wouldn't take a dive. And I've certainly blocked students of mine from earning classifications by eliminating them at local tournaments (in events where I couldn't earn anything new myself).

Related question (that's come up for me more recently): would you ever throw a bout (or more likely touches) in a tournament to improve your seed (as in move to an easier path, rather than a higher seed position)?

My answer remains no.

-B

[AndrewH]

Related question (that's come up for me more recently): would you ever throw a bout (or more likely touches) in a tournament to improve your seed (as in move to an easier path, rather than a higher seed position)?

Without seeing the DE table, how would you know which path would be easier?

[RevJonathan]

Well, I've done it before. Several times, sort of.

I really didn't want a C so that I could fence div 3 events. I didn't want the rating, so I didn't win the bouts. It is not an intentional thing. If you don't want to win a bout, you never will.

[Frank Pratt]

Without seeing the DE table, how would you know which path would be easier?

Good point. On more than one occasion, I've earned a good seed out of the pools, only to get knocked out in my first DE by a good fencer who was a much lower seed, simply because he had an unusually hard time in the pools. Their bad luck always seems to run out by the time I face them! All in all, though, I think doing well in the pools will usually get you into a higher DE bracket than a poor result would.

I think most people agree that collusion is bad, but this is probably the hardest group 3 or 4 offense to prove. Like all other calls, it all boils down to the referee's judgment, but how can you be sure that an experienced fencer simply was not on top of his or her game during that bout? We all have our bad days, and good fencers loose to beginners more often than most people realize.

[mrbiggs]

I really didn't want a C so that I could fence div 3 events. I didn't want the rating, so I didn't win the bouts. It is not an intentional thing. If you don't want to win a bout, you never will.

The number of problems with this stance is staggering.

[AndrewH]

Good point. On more than one occasion, I've earned a good seed out of the pools, only to get knocked out in my first DE by a good fencer who was a much lower seed, simply because he had an unusually hard time in the pools. Their bad luck always seems to run out by the time I face them! All in all, though, I think doing well in the pools will usually get you into a higher DE bracket than a poor result would.

Well sometimes (often...) depending on how the higher seeds do in pools, losing a bout or two can actually get you an easier path. The thing is though, you never know in advance what record/indicators will get that for you (or perhaps oiuyt does know somehow?...)

[AndrewH]

The number of problems with this stance is staggering.

Well i've never (nor would I) drop a bout to avoid earning a rating, but I have to say I was almost disappointed when I got my B and realized I'd never fence div II again.

[oiuyt]

Without seeing the DE table, how would you know which path would be easier?

Because I'm very good at running tournaments in my head, and have the ability to go around to the number of pools typically found in a local tournament and calculate who the top 8 or so seeds are? Granted not a particularly useful skill/habit, as I don't use the information to improve my position. I've certainly entered my final pool bout knowing that if I give up more than, say, 2 touches (and that exactly 2 touches makes it a 50-50 thing), that I'll drop a position into the easier half of the tableau. And then proceeded to win the bout 5-0.

Meh. The point of local tournaments is practice. The harder path is better practice. I also haven't ever intentionally dropped touches in order to disimprove my seed to get harder paths.

-B

[Phaeton]

This question comes up a lot, and my answer as always is no.

The closest thing I would do to doing this is if I had a substantial lead in a DE (something like 12-3) and I felt I had an action that wasn't working I'd attempt to get the nonworking action working in my next DE. It isn't exactly throwing a bout, as I'd expect say a parry riposte to work, but if I won the bout all on attack on preps it'd make me a bit uncomfortable for my next round.

[mrbiggs]

Well i've never (nor would I) drop a bout to avoid earning a rating, but I have to say I was almost disappointed when I got my B and realized I'd never fence div II again.

Oh, that's completely understandable. Losing the bout on purpose is not.

First, you just cheated the fencer you were fencing because he didn't get to earn his placement. Second, you cheated all the fencers in every pool you're in when you're always underseeded. Third, you cheated all the division two fencers who have to keep fencing you. Fourth, you cheated in terms of the rules, and you can and should be black carded. Fifth, you cheated the sport because losing on purpose defeats the purpose of competition entirely.

(You being RevJonathan)

[RevJonathan]

Never said it was on purpose, I was fully aware of the rules, and in no way tried to break them. I'm saying that if you are not ready for a rating it will distract you to no end in that bout. I can't tell you that I would not have won those bouts if a rating was not on the line. I can tell you that I tried to win despite the nagging rating, because it is the only honorable thing to do.