You Vs Director..Ever Win?

[MessiahFencing]

Have you ever been in a time, where the director makes ( what you think ) a bad call, whether it be 'parry riposte vs beat attack' attack in prep or continuation of attack' or something like that, and you ( your coach, a teammate, etc ) argued with the director saying what you think you did/happened and then ask for a play by play kinda thing and when that doesnt work, you ask once again...(wow what a run-on sentence)?

Have you ever convinced a director of what you said, have you ever seen a director change their mind..? I have never seen it, so i dont understand why people bother arguing.... Nothing happens... right???

[mrbiggs]

They might change their minds for the next touch. I've had it work for me, and I've had others get calls against me from arguing.

[oiuyt]

I have absolutely seen referees change their call.

And yes, this IS basically an open invitation to have both fencers, all coaches, and partisan spectators working him/her over for the remainder of the bout/pool/day.

Most of the time one is working to have future calls be different, not the recently made call. Alerting a referee to watch more carefully for something s/he missed the first time. Raising awareness of the correct action so the referee notices it correctly subsequent times.

And sometimes it's just whiny people blowing off steam. :)

-B

[MessiahFencing]

awwww.... whenever someone a director calls something wrong for me, i change what i do!!! so he cant make the same mistake lol...

[annacattiva]

I once managed to point out to the ref that he had completely reversed the call. He was in the middle of the call, with each part backwards. I sort of said "Sir, wasn't that..." and he said "Oh WAIT! I'm getting it backwards!" It was weird. Only time I've gotten someone to change a call, though.

Anna

[RevJonathan]

I hate to see it happen, but it does. When I'm on strip, I ask questions like- where did you see the extension?, Did I not reposte? Then, when the director has babbled his reply, I say "Thank you, sir." and continue. This keeps the director aware of what you think the call is, and allows you to avoid making the same "mistake" twice.

As for working directors, I'm pretty good at it. Always smile, ask how they are and tell a joke before a bout, or at opportune times during breaks. Make sure your stuff works. And be sure to shake hands and thank them after the pool or DE is over. If you stay polite then the bad directors will call in your favor. For the good ones, it probably won't matter, but they will be more helpful to you if you're nice.

[peet]

An opponent of mine once successfully argued his way out of a yellow card at summer nats.

I was quite surprised, and let the referee know as much...

-p

[oiuyt]

I once managed to point out to the ref that he had completely reversed the call. He was in the middle of the call, with each part backwards. I sort of said "Sir, wasn't that..." and he said "Oh WAIT! I'm getting it backwards!" It was weird. Only time I've gotten someone to change a call, though.

I must have stronger jedi powers than you.

I've simply told the referee a call noticibly different than what s/he said and had them agree with me and flip the touch (generally much to my surprise, as I'm not actually trying to get a reversal).

For the good ones, it probably won't matter, but they will be more helpful to you if you're nice.

Pretty much by definition if it DOES matter then they aren't a good one. They may still be more helpful.

-B

[Chafunkta]

And yes, this IS basically an open invitation to have both fencers, all coaches, and partisan spectators working him/her over for the remainder of the bout/pool/day.

This is why you don't see referees changing their calls. Once a fencer convinces a referee to change their call, everyone that witnesses it (or hears about it) will now believe they also can change the ref's calls. It leads to more and more arguing.

You don't argue for the current call, you argue for the next call.

As someone with experience in fencing refereeing and high-level umpiring I can tell you that that is absolutely the correct way to go about it. I won't ever change my call as an umpire (unless it's a rules issue), but I will definitely consider what the coach is arguing in my decision for my next call (if the coach has a decent point).

So be calm, explain your concern, what your reasoning is, and let them know you're a little upset, and then get on with your fencing.

I think Jeff Bukantz wrote an article on this in American Fencing...

[RevJonathan]

Pretty much by definition if it DOES matter then they aren't a good one. They may still be more helpful.

-B

Well, a good director can also be a pretty pissed off person in general. Just always stay on your director's good side. You'll find life to be infinitely easier.

[MessiahFencing]

any directors here that have made the wrong call, and didn't change it because of that reason? just wondering...?

[Chafunkta]

I once managed to point out to the ref that he had completely reversed the call. He was in the middle of the call, with each part backwards. I sort of said "Sir, wasn't that..." and he said "Oh WAIT! I'm getting it backwards!" It was weird. Only time I've gotten someone to change a call, though.

Anna

Sounds more like an error by mouth, not necessarily by brain. The referee knew what the call was, he just didn't convey it right. I don't know if it really qualifies as a changed call.

It's still grounds for the referee to get into some trouble with coaches or parents, though.

[oiuyt]

Well, a good director can also be a pretty pissed off person in general. Just always stay on your director's good side. You'll find life to be infinitely easier.

Also shouldn't change the calls from a good referee.

Life being easier, quite possibly. A worthy goal? Absolutely (and not just because I spend as much time as a referee as I do as a fencer).

-B

[RevJonathan]

any directors here that have made the wrong call, and didn't change it because of that reason? just wondering...?

I have stood by a call that was wrong for that reason. Maybe I shouldn't have. The only way I'd overturn a call would be if-
1. I had doubts
2. The fencer complained
3. The other fencer conceded

Then I may say "Nothing done" or I'd award the touch

[AndrewH]

any directors here that have made the wrong call, and didn't change it because of that reason? just wondering...?

Never. I've made calls that as soon as it came out of my mouth, I knew I blew it. Fencers complain, coaches argue, but you can't show weakness. Stick by your call no matter how wrong you realize you might have been. Once you show uncertainty the fencers will eat you alive.

[eac]

In general, as far as I can tell, if a guy is reversing reasonably clear calls, he is just a bad ref, and there's nothing to be done about it. I had two refs in the same Div I pool that just had no idea whatsoever; he'd call parries beats and beats parries, when they were really clear, and no interpretation of ROW (even classicist) would have agreed with that. At one point both I and my coach swiveled our heads and yelled "WHAT?!?" to no avail. I am pretty bad at dealing with that psychologically; in multiple bouts, a bad call against me has totally messed me up in the head, and led me to lose the bout.

[RebelFencer]

The only thing I can think of is recently a guy fleche'd me and hit on the remise. The director gave him the touch, I thought it was out of bounds and asked the director if that was the case, he thought and anulled the touch. Good? Bad? Oh well.

[RebelFencer]

I have stood by a call that was wrong for that reason. Maybe I shouldn't have. The only way I'd overturn a call would be if-
1. I had doubts
2. The fencer complained
3. The other fencer conceded

Then I may say "Nothing done" or I'd award the touch

So you'd overturn a call if a fencer disagreed with your call? Please, please ref my bouts.

[RevJonathan]

So you'd overturn a call if a fencer disagreed with your call? Please, please ref my bouts.

I should've been more clear! If all three of those things happened.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

This thread ties in nicely with a question I had earlier but didn't want to create a new thread for:


A friend of mine was reffing a fairly low-level middle-of-nowhere tournament. It was still in New England, so it wasn't that bad, but still. The reigning powers-that-be weren't as competent as others.

Said friend isn't the best ref on the planet, but they didn't have many people helping out, and he's at least taken the seminar, so he has at least a vague understanding of the rules. Both fencers had been arguing/unhappy all bout, so at the very least, whatever he was/wasn't seeing was upsetting them both.

Finally, at 14-14, one of the kids asks for a new director.

At this point, I wasn't able to get a clear sense of what the hell happened. The kid's coach told him to shut up and fence, but, but, but..... what???

A ref serves at the pleasure of the bout committee. If whoever is assigning decides to pull you, you're pulled. This is something that's expected in DEs-- and doesn't mean an assigner thinks your bad, it means they're rational. Pulling mid-pool is significantly more rare-- Except in cases of "we now have an extra ref for your weapon, and we really need the ref you've got for something else" ... I don't remember seeing it off the top of my head and I can't think of an example where that's happened, it just kind of floats to the surface of my brain as something that wouldn't suprise me.

Which leads me to my question. Have you ever seen a ref pulled mid bout? In any case, even if they're really really really bad??? I've known assigners to keep someone HORRIBLE in for an entire pool based on the fact that if anyone else stepped in, it would be unfair for the people who'd had certain bouts in the first half. I can't imagine it happening with a good bout committee/assigner, I imagine it might happen more often away from the better run tournaments, but I'm not sure it would even happen there.

Thoughts?