Does anyone know if the figure 8 foils/epees of old are legal for competition today. Regardless of that...does anybody know where one can be purchased. Thanks.
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Those look like foils to me.
(At least, what I can see of the blade makes it look square.)
Do you have any bigger or more specific pics of those two?
The preceding post brought to you by Rabid Monk (TM). Rabid Monk: informative, irreverent, interesting, random and downright odd posts, done with pride since 1983.
Those look like foils to me.
(At least, what I can see of the blade makes it look square.)
They are indeed foils - butterfly guards I've heard them called. There should be two thick leather flaps that sit under the metal loops - although these tend to be removed since they look better (to some people) without them.
m.5 1. The convex face of the guard must have a shape and surface
which is both smooth and not too bright. It must be so made
that it can neither hold nor catch the opponent’s point. It must
not have a raised rim.
I'm not an expert, but a figure eight guard could catch an opponent's point, so I would think no.
They are indeed foils - butterfly guards I've heard them called. There should be two thick leather flaps that sit under the metal loops - although these tend to be removed since they look better (to some people) without them.
So they are foils.
Which brings us back to the smallsword.
But doesn't answer where to find one of those training foils.
(Now I'm interested, too.)
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I think theres another rule about the guard being free of perforations.
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So they are foils.
Which brings us back to the smallsword.
But doesn't answer where to find one of those training foils.
(Now I'm interested, too.)
Well an antique shop would be your best bet. I (may still) have a pair that are early 20th century complete with the wadding tied over the tips. The picture is of a modern reproduction of the old foil design (or a small sword pattern perhaps although it looks more like a copy of the early sport foils than a smallsword). I suppose the lack of the leather flaps behind the loops is to make it look more swordy
I wouldn't be surprised if TCA carries them in their thratrical line.
Check with Zen Warrier Armoury (the part of TCA that Walter kept when he sold TCA). There are several other sources for foils with figure-8 guards for historical and classical fencing.
As stated, Zen Armoury, American Fencers (in the historical/theatrical section), an ARMA/SCA sword smith such as Darkwood Armoury (very nice blades/fittings made for use) or on Ebay. They tend to show up there fairly often on not quite antique, just old swords at sometimes reasonable prices.
And yes it is not legal for competition. Like a lot not legal. Like the armourer/referee would probably black card you if you presented one under the presumption that if you would try to fence someone with that, you are going to do something much, much more dangerous before the day is over...
Last edited by CvilleFencer; 02-26-2007 at 12:32 AM.
Just another lost soul saved by the (hit) First Church of EPEE!
I've got a pair mounted on my wall. They're Spanish and they're inherited from my Grandpa. I am not willing to part with them, but can send you pictures if you like.
Leon Paul have figure 8 guards in brass they where on our site but were removed with some of the re-enactment sword. contact sales"leonpaul.com for price and delivery.
I enjoy collecting old swords and fencing weapons and particularly enjoy quirky little oddities.
As to Figure-8 guards, sometimes called lunette guards, I have never seen one mounted on an epee. I have never read a reference to one on an epee either. This should not be taken as authoritative, but if I found such a device, I would have to presume someone removed that guard from a foil and placed it on an epee.
The last rulebook to mention those guards, IIRC, is the 1957 AFLA Rulebook. They were still allowed for dry competition, but had to have the leather pad. They were no longer mentioned in the 1968 rulebook. By that time, serious competitions were all electric. I have never seen an electric foil with a lunette guard.
As far as I know, every lunette guard I have ever seen was mounted on a dry foil. Since modern USFA competitions, if that is what you are referring to, are purely set up for electric fencing, it is a moot point. No dry foil is "legal."
If you are referring to classical fencing, traditional fencing or any other style employing non-electric tournaments and free fencing, I suspect you could find some who would allow figure-8 guards.
I have seen photos in college yearbooks in Texas up to about 1947 or 1948 where one or two students might still be seen with such, but they are in a serious minority.
As far as I can tell, for full-out competitions into the 1950s, the leather pads were required. It seems they were occasionally eschewed in classwork so that hand and finger positions could more easily be demonstrated, reviewed and corrected.
Last edited by schlager7; 02-26-2007 at 03:51 PM.
"Sabre is Theatre. Foil is Art. Epee is Truth." - attributed to Al Peters
Leaving aside the issue of legality for a second (they obviously aren't) but why would anyone even want to attempt to fence with one? It's like having a bellguard with big holes in it. Is there a point to it, other than aesthetics?
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Leaving aside the issue of legality for a second (they obviously aren't) but why would anyone even want to attempt to fence with one? It's like having a bellguard with big holes in it. Is there a point to it, other than aesthetics?
He could probably pair it with an italian grip for a one two punch of awesome.
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Leaving aside the issue of legality for a second (they obviously aren't) but why would anyone even want to attempt to fence with one? It's like having a bellguard with big holes in it. Is there a point to it, other than aesthetics?
The foil was originaly a training tool for the smallsword.
The traditional smallsword has an 8-shaped guard.
I imagine that's the point. To get used to the gurad shape.
Of course, I could be wrong. Schlager7 seems to have a good grasp on this, so he might correct or add to my post.
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My grasp is debatable, but I believe you have hit the nail on the head. What we know today as a fencing foil was created as a training tool for the smallsword.
Late smallswords tended to what we sometimes call a "clamshell" guard. If you just keep to the outline of clamshell and the rest open, you get a figure-8shape.
Using a foil in an instructional setting, the open figure-8 makes it very easy for a student to observe how the instructor holds the weapon... and easy for the instructor to see and (as needed) correct the student's grasp.
For practice bouts, free fencing and (somewhat later) competitions, a leather pad was added just behind the guard for safety and utility.
As to its utility in modern fencing (without even bothering about rules/legality) it worthwhile to recall that tournaments were not the be-all and end-all of learning to fence until a good decade or so into the 20th Century when the full effect of the Olympics was felt. Previously it was a more defensive game and fencing was taken up more for general health (like yoga and/or aerobics, today) or for the odd duel.
"Sabre is Theatre. Foil is Art. Epee is Truth." - attributed to Al Peters
Originally Posted by Rabid Monk 
