Referees, you make the call: body contact in epee

[tbryan]

We often have rules and refereeing threads, but there's often a problem of "I'm having trouble imagining what you're describing." I find that discussing specific situations with other referees is the best way to help me understand the rules. Considering many scenarios before I'm actually on strip and refereeing also helps me to make the "right" call more often. So, I'm posting a video clip. The angle isn't perfect, but the action is pretty clear. Just so that there's no confusion, I'll mention that both touches were on valid target and that the lights were on the box before any body contact occurred.

Video clip of body contact in an epee bout

I'm interested in hearing various people's ideas so that other referees have a chance to see some action, decide what they would do, read what other referees would have done, and understand the things that referees should consider when they are applying various rules. Until the FOC puts together a training video for new referees, I think that these types of discussions are one of the best way to improve your refereeing off strip.

Since the poll is public, the best referees here might want to wait a bit to vote/post just to give the rest of us some time to discuss. Otherwise, others might not participate if they see that all of the highly rated referees have already voted for the same option.

[Inquartata]

Looks to me as though the one fencer was doing a bit of dramatic acting, trying to get the call, rather than actually being jostled.

Of course, the angle of observation isn't ideal. But it didn't look like there was any really forceful contact.

[tbryan]

Looks to me as though the one fencer was doing a bit of dramatic acting, trying to get the call, rather than actually being jostled.

As the fencer who fell, I'll just say that I didn't hurl myself to the floor. I don't know whether I could have remained upright, but I've learned the hard way that it's often safer not to fight against a fall once it starts.

It may help to watch the falling fencer's mask or left shoulder. You can see the force of the hit a bit more there than you can if you're watching my legs.

Of course, the angle of observation isn't ideal. But it didn't look like there was any really forceful contact.

Valid point. Just how "forceful" does the contact have to be before the referee starts to card for jostling?

[Goldgar]

It's hard to tell for sure from the video, but to me it doesn't look like a forceful contact, but a light contact that happened to occur in such a way as to cause the FOTR to lose his balance. FOTL seems to be trying actively to avoid contact. If you're the FOTR, you can tell us more about that.

I also can't quite tell whether the body contact and fall occur in a completely separate, though small, action that begins after the double touch occurs. From what I can see, though, even if the contact was part of the same action, I'd award both touches and no cards.

[Inquartata]

As the fencer who fell, I'll just say that I didn't hurl myself to the floor. I don't know whether I could have remained upright, but I've learned the hard way that it's often safer not to fight against a fall once it starts.

Looked almost as though you were performing a "reach around".

Seriously, I have watched the clip about a dozen times now. It appears that you were reaching around him or---trying to hit his back foot? I'm not sure what was toward, but it looks like he turns and steps into a waiting one-armed waist-hug, whereupon you lose your balance. Doesn't look like he was trying to body-check you or anything.

Is there a way to slow down the clip?

Valid point. Just how "forceful" does the contact have to be before the referee starts to card for jostling?

Well, the closest the rules come to weighing in on the subject is to equate "a fleché resulting in a shock" with intentional brutality. I'd extrapolate from that that one needs both intent and brutality in addition to a "shock" ( some minimum of force). I don't see either here.

This is known in law as 'evading the question'.

[Phrogger]

Tough to see what happened from this angle (and with the choppy frame rate on my computer)...but I'm saying yellow card for the guy on the left, for jostling his opponent. He made no attempt to avoid contact with his opponent, even after the halt.

------------
From t.20:
In all three weapons it is forbidden for a fencer to cause corps à
corps intentionally to avoid being touched, or to jostle the opponent.
Should such an offence occur, the Referee will penalize the fencer at
fault as specified in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120 and any touch scored
by the fencer at fault is annulled.
------------

[whtouche]

I could be wrong but I don't think so. I think it's pretty clear that the second option of the poll is correct, double touch, the body contact and possible jostling occured pretty significantly after the halt and was clearly not even a continuation of the action that resulted in the touch.

[the doc]

i have looked at it loads of times and i am still not sure.

however, it is plausible that you could card the chap on the left for turning before he delivers the hit and card him for that. depends on your ref.

to my mind there does not seem to be a lot of intent from the man on the left to deliberately barge and he is not trying to avoid a hit, which according to the rule written above would be no card.

it is also my general preference for epeeists not be ponces and get on with it.

[Fechter1]

Alright, my $.02:

From the angle, we can only interpolate what the referee was actually able to see. It would seem that there was definitely contact, but where? Contact between the hip and upper arm would not, in my mind, constitute jostling (or even really corp-a-corps). However, as the video seems to indicate, the contact was hip to shoulder, which does deserve the jostling yellow IMHO. That the contact occurred after the actual hit does not come into play, as the motion that caused said contact was what enabled the hit in the first place.

Dirk: I have to disagree with you on this: neither fencer seems to try to actively avoid contact, but as it is the motion of FOTL (who changes direction towards his opponent) that causes the contact and subsequent loss of balance, I'd say FOTL is at fault...

My judgement (if I saw what I think the ref would have been able to see) would have been a jostling card, touch awarded to the right.
Then again, this is a judgement call by the ref, and you'll get different calls by different refs.

Edit to account for the responses as I was typing:
wht: I'd say the contact was definitely caused as part of the motion that enabled the hit by FOTL, hence my choice of calls.

doc: definitely not turning. New guidelines say turning is shoulders completely turned around (directly facing away from the opponent)...

noodle: not what I would call "heavy" contact, but enough to throw FOTR off-balance, and thus can be called as jostling

Note: all of the above are entirely based on my interpretation of the action, not to be taken as absolutes in any way.

[noodle]

not even close to jostling. the guy on the right was in an unbalanced lunge, the guy on the left hit with not much force, but enough to cause him to fall over. he rolled over because he had no hands to catch himself with.

jostling has to be with a certain amount of force behind it. if i graze my opponent with my thumb and he flys back 10 feet and does a few rolls, i shouldn't get a card for his theatrics.

[the doc]

what i recommend is that everyone watches the video underneath it called super athens fencing 2004. it is really very good.

older people may want to watch with the sound off though.

[epeemike81]

not even close to jostling. the guy on the right was in an unbalanced lunge, the guy on the left hit with not much force, but enough to cause him to fall over. he rolled over because he had no hands to catch himself with.

jostling has to be with a certain amount of force behind it. if i graze my opponent with my thumb and he flys back 10 feet and does a few rolls, i shouldn't get a card for his theatrics.

Agreed. As TBryan has already admitted, he felt himself losing his balance and rolled with it rather than trying to stay upright. that's not FOTL's fault.

then again, I tend to go with "no harm no foul" a lot in epee.

-m

[Inquartata]

He made no attempt to avoid contact with his opponent, even after the halt.

A) He doesn't have to "attempt to avoid contact".

B) He seems to have been doing so nevertheless, to my eye---he's stepping off to the right, as though to get out of the line of the opponent's advance.

Let's say that fencer A, a giant bodybuilder, a veritable OROD of a man, merely stands stock-still and immobile while his opponent, fencer B, a Barney Fife lookalike, leaps into the air and hurtles into A, then bounces off his still-motionless bulk and tumbles to the ground. Certainly B has been "jostled"; but he has jostled himself. Are we to card A for corps-a-corps, for standing still? There is no responsibility to get out of someone's way, IMO.

[the doc]

funny you should mention that kind of situation, inq. i have had that exact thing happen to me.

in this case, it was a chippy little arrogant austrian who was trying to intimidate me by fleching directly into me. the second time he tried it, he bounced off me and flew down the piste landing on his arse.

he tried to call me for the foul and a card. we just laughed at him.

the only person who has a responsibilty to move t avoid contact is the person fleching. a stationary person has no responsibilty at all.

in the clip shown, i might give them a warning to avoid contact next time. almost certainly no card though.

[tbryan]

Agreed. As TBryan has already admitted, he felt himself losing his balance and rolled with it rather than trying to stay upright. that's not FOTL's fault.

It's not like I lunged and fell over. I lost balance because the other fencer ran into me. The pertinent questions, I think, are whose fault was the contact, and was it simple corps a corps or jostling?

then again, I tend to go with "no harm no foul" a lot in epee

And some foil referees still won't give a card for simple corps a corps.

What it sounds like you're saying that that there has to be potential to harm the fencer before you start carding for jostling. Perhaps that's not what you meant.

[epeemike81]

It's not like I lunged and fell over. I lost balance because the other fencer ran into me. The pertinent questions, I think, are whose fault was the contact, and was it simple corps a corps or jostling?

and the pertinent answers are both fencers and simple corp a corps.

And some foil referees still won't give a card for simple corps a corps.

yeah, I'm not one of them. in foil, any contact will draw at least one card from me.

What it sounds like you're saying that that there has to be potential to harm the fencer before you start carding for jostling. Perhaps that's not what you meant.

That is what I meant to say, though it was intentionally an overstatement. I was implying that I tend to approach epee with a "let them play" attitude and I rarely give cards for jostling. I've seen similar approaches from many high level epee refs.

-m

[tbryan]

It would seem that there was definitely contact, but where? Contact between the hip and upper arm would not, in my mind, constitute jostling (or even really corp-a-corps).

I'm not sure how it would not be corps a corps. The hip and the upper arm are both parts of the body. Anytime two fencers are in body to body contact, it's corps a corps, right? Isn't that kind of the definition of corps a corps?

[Inquartata]

And some foil referees still won't give a card for simple corps a corps.

Some sabre refs, too. I see c-a-c ignored on a pretty regular basis.

Maybe it's a version of jury nullification---the general referee community saying in effect "Carding for every little brush-against is stupid and we are not going to do it".

[epeelion]

Touches before the contact (if you start-stop to simulate slow motion, it's clear). Double touch, en guarde.

Hehe, I was at that tournament, it was the Hangover in Richmond. Guy on the left is a former teammate of mine, Noah Weiner. Again, double touch occurred before contact.

[epeemike81]

Some sabre refs, too. I see c-a-c ignored on a pretty regular basis.

a lot more sabre refs ignore than foil, in fact. I saw a particularly egregious example of this in Albuquerque...

on the fence command, FOTL does a simple advance lunge attack. FOTR does advance flunge (which doesn't even begin to accurately describe it... he basically HURLED himself at his opponent). This combination of actions results in a very hard body contact. Referee's call: No cards, attack for FOTR, touch right (incidentally, cac aside, I and a few other refs watching the bout all saw clear timing: attack for the left).

In defending the non-call afterward, the referee claimed that if anybody should have gotten a card it would have been FOTL for stepping into it.

-m