Sixteen

[4qtrs]

Maybe is it a wrong perception on my part, but it seems to me that (at least for guys) the year between sixteen and seventeen is a rough fencing year for results.

I have seen several examples of kids who have consistantly done well up through 14 and 15 having difficultly when they are 16.

Has anyone else noticed this?

[Cookeit]

I started fencing last year when I was 16. Now I'm 17 and I have greatly improved

[4qtrs]

Do you think the improvement was due to an age or practice factor?

[Cookeit]

I think it was more that the jump from
zero skill to some skill

is larger than that of
some skill to more skill.

[4qtrs]

I was actually thinking more along the lines of people who have been fencing for a while. It seems to me that the 16-17 year is a tough one for maintaining results.

Or perhaps it is more of an issue of teenagers reaching a high level (top 32)and then plateauing. There seems to be a certain surge effect of the group that is stuck in the 64 suddenly moving up to the 32 and the ones that were in the 32 moving to the 64 (not all, but enough).

Has anyone else noticed this?

[RITFencing]

Look for other things that have heppened; has the fencer hit puberty recently, or had a big growth spurt (this can lead to some issues with movement) or have they started to fence Junior stuff now that they're nearly aged out of Cadet, or are things going on emotionally? Any of those can change a fencer's performance, especially around that age.

[4qtrs]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Look for other things that have heppened; has the fencer hit puberty recently, or had a big growth spurt (this can lead to some issues with movement) or have they started to fence Junior stuff now that they're nearly aged out of Cadet, or are things going on emotionally? Any of those can change a fencer's performance, especially around that age.

I have been with mine and that's when I started to wonder looking at other kids at the same age. Even looking back 1-1.5 years with my oldest. He had the same type of slump.

By the way, I LOVE Nat's quote.

[Cookeit]

When you call top 32 a "high level", I am curious to know how many people compete in your events. I know that in all of my HS tournaments, you only need to win your first DE to get into top 32.

[Elkhansaa]

i know this is off topic and im sorry but i'm curious how does a high school tournament have DE bouts?

[foildad]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

When you call top 32 a "high level", I am curious to know how many people compete in your events. I know that in all of my HS tournaments, you only need to win your first DE to get into top 32.

4qtrs is referring to top 32 in national events, such as Summer National Championships, Junior Olympics, or North American Cups.

[foildad]

Originally Posted by 4qtrs

I was actually thinking more along the lines of people who have been fencing for a while. It seems to me that the 16-17 year is a tough one for maintaining results.

Or perhaps it is more of an issue of teenagers reaching a high level (top 32)and then plateauing. There seems to be a certain surge effect of the group that is stuck in the 64 suddenly moving up to the 32 and the ones that were in the 32 moving to the 64 (not all, but enough).

Has anyone else noticed this?

The cadet, junior, and even senior points lists are full of successful 15, 16 and 17 year olds. If a fencer has reached the 32 or 16 in Y14 or cadet I would expect them to continue with and/or improve on these results. If they're not, I'd first look at the following potential issues: nutrition; lack of motivation; crazy teenage hormonal imbalances; lack of opportunity (family support, bouting opportunities in the club, inability to travel, etc). If these all seem fine, I'd start to question the student/coach relationship:

Is the student taking regular lessons?
Do both the coach and student feel the lessons are productive?
Are the other students in the club progressing and leaving this student behind, or all the kids there plateauing?
Has the content of the lessons progressed over time? Some coaches seem to give the same lesson over and over for years.
Is the student receiving adequate stripside coaching when they need it?
Is the student being given enough space to learn to think for themself on the strip?

The other issue to keep in mind is the randomness of results. Bad matchups happen. A kid can miss the 32 by a score of 10-9 and their opponent can make the finals. It happens, and it doesn't necessarily mean the kid is slipping. Over time, though, those things even out.

[fences_like_a_lemur]

You might also look at other things in the person life such as school work, friends, and relationships; all of those could drastically change how the person is fencing. Also, drivers licenses...around the ages of 16 and 17, lots of things are changing in people lives so it could easily be just that.

[Teme]

Not really sure about what level we're discussing, or how the categories work in USA, but isn't that age about the time when a fencer moves from very narrow age groups into more general classes (like cadets, or juniors) and suddenly meet fencers that are (besides being 'distilled' enthusiast) older, better, stronger, faster, quicker and have better technique/tactics with experience.

Every time you 'switch level', so to speak, you start from the basics again. Or, like my trainer said before my first (and only) WC: "It's like jumping from tricycle to F1. Your head will be spinning from the speed they finish you off with, and then the pool is over just when you're beginning to understand how different it all is".

[4qtrs]

Originally Posted by foildad

If they're not, I'd first look at the following potential issues: nutrition; lack of motivation; crazy teenage hormonal imbalances; lack of opportunity (family support, bouting opportunities in the club, inability to travel, etc). If these all seem fine, I'd start to question the student/coach relationship:

Is the student taking regular lessons?
Do both the coach and student feel the lessons are productive?
Are the other students in the club progressing and leaving this student behind, or all the kids there plateauing?
Has the content of the lessons progressed over time? Some coaches seem to give the same lesson over and over for years.
Is the student receiving adequate stripside coaching when they need it?
Is the student being given enough space to learn to think for themself on the strip?

Good points and I do see a couple that stand out for me.

[sleepyweasle]

Don't underestimate the pressures of school. For those not home schooled most of the 16-17 y/os are in thier junior year of High School with it's attendant stresses...AP classes, SAT's, pre-college insanity (most of my kid's social life is at NACs, JOs, and WCs so I don't even count that at this point). I'm sure my daughter isn't the only one who has been sacrificing fencing classes to finish school projects or study for big exams. Especially since she's been away so much this year she's constantly having to catch up on work she's missed. It's really difficult to maintain a top level of training when you're constantly exhausted from staying up to do homework.

Senior year seems to be a time when the pressure lifts a bit (despite worrying about college) so I've seen kids rebound quite a bit during that year.

[duel mom]

Why is there no individual Under 19 events at divisional Summer National Qualifiers? Why must Under 19 only qualify through Sectional events?

[4qtrs]

The rules state that the Jr and Div IA quals are done at the Section level and not the Division. It does cut down on the numbers for the event. Which with fencing getting larger and larger each year I am gratful for (until the USFA can find a better way to do it.)

[Mo]

I see the guys in the club getting better and better more quickly as they get older. The girls seem to settle into fencing at a higher level a bit sooner.
Wiring in the brain is at an intense level between 15-20. Usually males reach athletic prime at 19-21 years of age.
If you look at the women, it seems that the younger women are winning more competitions now than their older counterparts.
A lot of it has to do with how fencing is growing and more and more people are starting the sport.
It should be interesting as the years pass.
Momster

[Ami]

Originally Posted by sleepyweasle

Don't underestimate the pressures of school. For those not home schooled most of the 16-17 y/os are in thier junior year of High School with it's attendant stresses...AP classes, SAT's, pre-college insanity (most of my kid's social life is at NACs, JOs, and WCs so I don't even count that at this point). I'm sure my daughter isn't the only one who has been sacrificing fencing classes to finish school projects or study for big exams. Especially since she's been away so much this year she's constantly having to catch up on work she's missed. It's really difficult to maintain a top level of training when you're constantly exhausted from staying up to do homework.

Senior year seems to be a time when the pressure lifts a bit (despite worrying about college) so I've seen kids rebound quite a bit during that year.

A homeschooled athlete must meet the same requirements as any other athlete to get into college, but he or she needs a little more discipline to do so, since s/he must choose to do school work, rather than being forced to because it's 10 a.m. and time for the big exam. All world-class fencers are under the same pressures... fencing their best through jet lag, strange hours, weird food, the scrutiny of thousands and their own expectations of themselves. The issue of where one is schooled really has very little to do with those abilities.

[Phincer]

Originally Posted by Ami

A homeschooled athlete must meet the same requirements as any other athlete to get into college, but he or she needs a little more discipline to do so, since s/he must choose to do school work, rather than being forced to because it's 10 a.m. and time for the big exam. All world-class fencers are under the same pressures... fencing their best through jet lag, strange hours, weird food, the scrutiny of thousands and their own expectations of themselves. The issue of where one is schooled really has very little to do with those abilities.

We have a huge HS community here and while I agree that HS athletes must meet the same requirements and choose to do school work, etc. there are big advantages to being a HS athlete. Here are some that I have observed:

HS groups are more lenient with time away for tournaments and catching up with school work. One HS mom was shocked when I told her our fencer couldn't make a NAC b/c his event was on a school day. Many of our HS fencers get to drive to tournaments, saving big bucks on gas, they get there early and are more rested than those of us who fly in the night before.

Public school students here that participate in non-school sports get no excused absences when it comes time to traveling for tournaments. This is a huge factor in when public school students travel-especially in high school. Some private school students have it even harder-at one school here, the fencer must be on the national points list of his/her sport in order to have their absences excused or use fencing as a P.E. credit.

HS athletes can structure their day to suit themselves. Hence private lessons can be taken earlier in the day.

HS students have to have the discipline to take the exam, but they can also schedule the exam to suit their schedule.

Before every HS parent/student jumps me b/c this doesn't fit their profile, remember, this is from one area of the country-and there are many groups doing many things.

From what I see, where I sit, I wish I'd done the homeschooling thing instead of public school-but who knew?